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Topic starter
12/12/2017 13:55:10
Pop-out Air Pistols
Topic starter
12/12/2017 13:56:12
Lincoln Jeffries (Jr) Scout Popout Air Pistol.
With thanks to Brian for these pics.
With thanks to Steve for these pics:
Topic starter
12/12/2017 13:57:33
Frank Clarke's 'The Briton' Popout Air Pistol.
With thanks to Brian for these pics.
Topic starter
12/12/2017 13:58:25
Britannia (nickel-plated)
With thanks to John A for these pics.
Topic starter
12/12/2017 13:59:13
JGA (Anschutz?) Popout Air Pistol.
With thanks to John Z for this pic.
Topic starter
12/12/2017 14:00:11
Anschütz Model-100
With thanks to John G for this pic.
With thanks to Eberhard for these pics:
Topic starter
12/12/2017 14:01:16
JGA 'Dolla' Popout Air Pistol.
See also entry for Dolla Mk2.
With thanks to Trev for this pic.
And another in an original JGA box. With thanks to the owner for permission to post.
It has 'Keenfire' stamped on the grips, as on the pellet tin. John Griffiths, author of The Encyclopedia of Spring Air Pistols, says: "Keenfire was a brand name used by a US company for its pellets and for the JGA pistol, which it imported from Germany and distributed in the States."
Topic starter
12/12/2017 14:02:12
Milbro Typhoon Popout Air Pistol.
With thanks to John G for this pic.
With thanks to Trev for this pic.
Pistol dates from 1949.
Topic starter
12/12/2017 14:03:04
Renta Popout Air Pistol.
Topic starter
12/12/2017 14:04:10
Frank Clarke - Whittall Popout Air Pistol.
With thanks to John G for these pics.
And to John A for this pic.
Topic starter
12/12/2017 14:05:39
British Cub Popout Air Pistol.
With thanks to John G for these pics.
Alloy version
Cast iron version
Topic starter
12/12/2017 14:06:35
Heym Model-103 Popout Air Pistol
See also:
https://www.jimmiedeesairguns.com/uncategorized/heym-lp103-air-pistol-1949-to-c-1956/
With thanks to John G for this pic.
Topic starter
12/12/2017 14:07:38
Briton Mk2 Popout Air Pistol.
With thanks to John G for these pics.
Topic starter
12/12/2017 14:09:26
Briton Mk3 Popout Air Pistol.
With thanks to John G for these pics.
With thanks to John M for these pics:
Topic starter
12/12/2017 14:13:43
Garanta Popout Air Pistol.
With thanks to John G for the first pic.
Topic starter
12/12/2017 14:14:33
Milbro (pre-War) tinplate Popout Air Pistol.
With thanks to John G for these pics.
Topic starter
12/12/2017 14:15:25
Lov 2 (early metal frame) Popout Air Pistol.
With thanks to John G for this pic.
Topic starter
12/12/2017 14:16:20
Lov 2 (later plastic frame) Popout Air Pistol.
With thanks to John G for this pic.
Topic starter
12/12/2017 14:17:09
Limit Popout Air Pistol.
With thanks to John G for these pics.
With thanks to John M:
Topic starter
12/12/2017 14:18:15
Milbro Diana Model-2 (plastic grip) Popout Air Pistol.
With thanks to John G for this pic.
Topic starter
12/12/2017 14:19:30
Milbro Diana Model-2 (wood grip) Popout Air Pistol.
With thanks to John G for this pic.
Topic starter
12/12/2017 14:20:37
Schmidt HSx Popout Air Pistols
See also:
https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/schmidt/schmidt-hs9-a/
With thanks to John G for these pics. He said: "It is an interesting pistol as it demonstrates how air gun manufacture changed from the 1950’s onwards as companies struggled to keep down costs by using more plastic in their construction."
The sequence of Schmidt HS pop-outs:
A similar decline was seen with the pre-war Anschutz push-barrel pistol, the JGA (also known as the Dolla Mk 2, the Keenfire, and the LOC), which had a wooden stock and sturdy metalwork nicely nickelled. After the war (1950’s -60’s) it evolved into the mainly plastic JGA 100 pistol, as shown below, although it did retain a bit more metalwork than the HS9A and had a separate steel trigger guard. They are much rarer in the UK than the HS9A.
The first HS (HS):
John G said: "This, the first version of a push-barrel pistol made by the Schmidt company, is made of strong sheet steel with hard wood checkered stock, and even now my example still works very smoothly delivering a pretty consistent 200 fps with cup slugs. I doubt the HS was imported into the UK as you never seem to see them for sale over here."
The second Schmidt HS (HS9):
John G said of this one: "It is actually quite a nice little, solid pistol as far as pop-outs go, and although it is mechanically identical to its wood grip HS predecessor, its one-piece plastic grip frame extends more forward than in the HS, and it also includes a plastic trigger guard. Like the wood grip, the blued steel cylinder unit is fixed to the grip frame by a bolt through the heel of the grip, and dismantling is straightforward."
Third and last Schmidt pop-out (HS 9A):
John G said: "By 1957 the design was changed to largely plastic, to give the HS9. This was made into the early 1970’s and is also rare. Then it evolved into the HS9A, which was available up to the 1990’s, and was exported into the UK. So examples of the HS9A are relatively easy to find these days, but its very light plasticky character is not very endearing. The cheapened construction did not affect performance though, and my little used example gives virtually the same muzzle velocities as the original HS."
Also branded as Hy-Score 818:
Topic starter
12/12/2017 14:22:00
Voere LDP3 Popout Air Pistol.
With thanks to John Z for these pics.
Topic starter
12/12/2017 14:23:21
Koma LDP3 Popout Air Pistol.
Identical to the Voere but with Koma stamped in the wood grips.
With thanks to John G for these pics.
Topic starter
12/12/2017 14:30:17
Dolla Mk2 Popout Air Pistol.
These pics copyright Henry Krank & Co.
Topic starter
12/12/2017 14:31:28
Langenhan Popout Air Pistol.
With thanks to John A for this pic. It is unmarked but believed to be by F Langenhan. It is different from similar EG pistols and has a single trigger/sear pivot pin.
Topic starter
12/12/2017 14:32:53
Harrington Gat Popout Air Pistol.
See also this article by Trevor Adams.
This is an edited extract from the Blue Book of Airguns, compiled with the assistance of Trevor Adams and John Atkins:
Trade name of T.J. Harrington & Sons Ltd. of Walton, Surrey, England.
About one million spring-piston, push-barrel airguns (based on the 1877 H.M. Quackenbush patent) mfg. from 1937 to 1940 and 1947 to 2000. Sold to Marksman Products of Huntington Beach, CA circa 2000 with production continuing.
The GAT is a low cost, mostly cast alloy, pop-out type pistol. It was first introduced in 1937, production ceased during the war.
The design of the GAT drew heavily upon an H. M. Quackenbush patent of 1877. All GATs have a smoothbore .177 barrel. Many are also fitted with a muzzle device that enables corks, as well as pellets and darts, to be fired.
The GAT design has undergone few variations; the most significant one would be the addition of a safety catch in 1982, to make the gun acceptable on the U.S. market.
In 1987 a smoothbore long gun version of the GAT was produced and marketed with little success.
With thanks to Trev for this ad:
Photo by Simon Speed.
And the Gat 'rifle' long gun:
Thanks to Mick for these pics:
Topic starter
15/12/2017 13:52:19
Lincoln Jeffries Scout box (reproduction?)
With thanks to Richard L for these pics.
He describes the box thus:
"It's well made but not 'factory accurate' as from a jig or punched pattern. It has a thin card base liner to both pistol and 'pellet' compartments.
The pellet push rod is fed through a hole and sits happily enough.
Whilst showing signs of having contained the Scout for a considerable length of time - you can see dark marks where the muzzle and front end of body tube have lain.
So it's been made in antiquity and i believe it may have been made in the early 1970s.
I noticed an indented stamp pattern on one of the sides. It's part of the three rotating arrows denoting the card as recycled.
Research reveals this and other alike derivatives - no design copyright ever existed - have been used on card from this time.
The odd bluish tinge on the labels appears to be a reaction of the paste used as a fixative, then roughly smeared across the surface as a sealant as the effect is carried over the card where the brush has wiped.
The enclosed booklet was probably a duplicate, one being cut to provide the illustrations for the top and interior.
Well cut and mounted with good black framing."
Topic starter
28/03/2018 12:48:22
Cutaway Lov 2
This pistol spotted on eGun.de
See also this Crosman Medalist 1322/1377 cutaway
See also this Diana mod 10 cutaway
See also this Webey Senior cutaway.
See also this cutaway Diana LP6.
See also this cutaway Diana 75.
See also this article on a cutaway Original model 27.
See also this post of three cutaway models
Topic starter
02/07/2019 14:49:17
LOC (made by JGA?)
With thanks to John G for these pics.
John's post on the airgunbbs.com was as follows:
"Bottom drawer oddities. Number 3. The LOC pistol – an example of Nazi subterfuge?
The following little pistol had been shelved away for a few years as it needed quite bit of tlc. As you can see, part of the grip has broken away and also someone has drilled a random hole in the grip, probably to test the sharpness of one of his drill bits, or maybe just because he felt like it.
The pistol will look familiar to some of you, as it is identical to the German Dolla Mark II pistol made by Anschutz between about 1929 and 1939.
However, if you look closely you will see that the grip medallion is impressed with the initials” LOC” instead of the usual “Dolla”, or “JGA” found with these pistols.
Comparing the medallion with a JGA example you can see the close similarity of the two styles of lettering.
Of course, the “LOC” trademark could just be another example of rebranding by a major distributor, so to test this I took the gun apart and compared it very closely with a disassembled JGA example. Every part, including screws, proved to be identical and interchangeable with the JGA, and the materials used and the various dimensions of the guns were identical. So the LOC appeared to be almost certainly an Anschutz product.
So why do I consider this pistol it to be an oddity and of peculiar interest? Well if you look at base of the grip the mystery begins:
Firstly it claims to have a registered US patent, and yet no such patent exists. In fact no patent has been granted anywhere for a push-barrel design pistol ever since Quackenbush took out his US patent for the design in 1876.
Secondly, it claims to have been made in Japan. Japanese spring air pistols are virtually unknown - in fact only one comes to mind, and that dates to about 1930. It seems incredibly unlikely that a Japanese manufacturer would go the extreme lengths of copying a well known German design down to the last detail in this way. What would be the point? This gun must surely have originated from Germany which means that the markings are purely fictitious.
This is further borne out by comparison of the boxes for the LOC pistol and for the German JGA pistol. The two are identical in graphics and differ only in the lettering. Interestingly the LOC box label repeats the myth that the gun originates from Japan.
I acquired my pistol about 10 years ago off American fleabay when the seller advertised it as a damaged toy pistol. Evidently fleabay agreed with him and never took the ad down, leaving me to snap it up at a very low price. In those wonderful days mailing air pistols from the States to the UK was no problem (and postal costs were a lot cheaper), and it arrived within a week. Since then I have seen three or four examples on the internet, all in the USA and never in the UK, so it seems to have been exclusively an American import.
The motivation for faking the “Made in Japan” markings in the run up to WW2 would then have been either to help overcome customer prejudice in the USA against German products, or to get round trade tariffs or even a trade embargo. Either way, the ploy would have been driven by economic need as Germany was desperate to get dollar currency at the time, as they had a massive trade deficit due to putting most of their industrial effort into war peparations.
US adverts for the JGA pistol in the 1930-41 period are very rare and the only one I know of is this:
This Hudson catalogue ad, dated 1936, illustrates the pistol with its original German JGA trademark, but is coy about saying exactly where it was made, just saying “…. From Europe” . This suggests that the fake "Made in Japan" labelling happened nearer 1940.
I had a look on the internet and it seems that by 1935 the USA had put Germany on its black list of countries that received no trading concessions from the US, and after 1939 a further 25% tariff was slapped on all German goods.
Interestingly I also came across this news headline dated June 10th this year referring to US trade:
"Chinese Exporters Dodge Tariffs With Fake Made-in-Vietnam Labels"
Another LOC spotted for sale in the US.
With thanks to John G for the heads up.
This one boxed and with a JGA-branded pistol for comparison.
With thanks to Mick for these pics.
The question of where the LOC pistols were made was discussed on the American Vintage Airguns forum.
Dave Trull wrote the following:
"Nice pictures of JGA pistols on the Vintage airgun gallery, but I do disagree about the post on the origin of the LOC labeled pistol.
Although the author's theory about Nazi subterfuge is remotely possible, I believe the "Made in Japan" labeled pistols were in fact made in Japan as the stamping says. Evidence from examining actual pistol examples show that there are physical differences between the German labeled pistols and the Japanese labeled pistols. Although the pistols appear identical at first glance, the differences are subtle but unmistakable when compared side to side. The change in origin stamps, pistol grip emblem and the difference in construction and the time period strongly points to a different manufacturer. At this time, I think these pistols were made in Japan as the label indicates, and that these Japanese made guns were restricted to the US market and likely produced from about 1939 to 1940.
I'll post more information about the Anschutz timeline and variants after I examine the JGA "Made in Japan" gun I expect to receive soon. I'll need to verify some things before posting more info, but I believe a Japanese firm initially manufactured the pistol under licensed from Anschutz. Hopefully the new gun coming in will help confirm that.
The most distinguishing difference between a Japanese manufacture pistol and a German manufactured pistol is the shape of the nickel plated barrel shroud. The Japanese version has a smoother taper than the German made pistol.
Take a look at the difference in the picture below:
Japanese on top, German on bottom"
He continued:
"The pistol I am waiting on is a JGA labeled pistol that has Made in Japan on the pistol grip. As far as I can tell from the auction photos, it has the smooth taper on the barrel shroud. Until I have it in hand I can't confirm. Fortunately it comes with its original box and a little history. The sellers grandfather bought the gun just before the war from Gimbels and it still has the price tag on it.
As I stated before, I believe the "Made in Japan" labeled pistols were in fact made in Japan as the stamping says. No subterfuge was involved. I think with the curtailing of imports from Nazi Germany by the late 1930s as the world approached World War 2, Anschutz was unable to continue exporting this small pistol to the United States and entered into a licensing agreement with a Japanese firm to produce and export the pistol to the US market. By 1939 Japan had extensive trade and technology exchanges going on, prior to signing the tripartite pact with Germany in 1940. Japan licensed numerous items and technology from the Germans. It appears that at the beginning of the licensing period, this Japanese firm marketed, manufactured and sold the pistol as a JGA pistol with a JGA grip medallion and box graphics the same as their German counterpart used for the US market. Other than a few subtle difference in appearance and the made in Japan stamp on the box and pistol grip, the guns looked practically identical. Within a year or so, it appears the Japanese firm decide to dropped the licensing agreement and save the royalty licensing fees and continued producing the pistol under a new name "LOC". All that was required was to change the emblem on the pistol grip and graphics on the box, and save the licensing fee. Otherwise the Japanese made "JGA" labeled pistol is identical to the Japanese made "LOC" pistol. I do have American advertisements from 1931 till 1940 confirming this Pistol availability to the US market for approximately 10 years. I would assume that when the US importers started receiving pistols with "LOC" on them from the same firm that had been supplying Japanese made JGA labeled pistols they did not care. It was a cheap low cost Spring pistol that looked the same as the prior guns except for the labels. The Guns were never advertised by the Anschutz name and had been sold nameless or under the various US names such as Keenfire and Big Chief. That reminds me, does anyone have a Big Chief label pistol??.
I also noticed all the ads from 1931 thru 1940 use the same illustration of an early JGA labeled pistol with the split knurl loading pin. Obviously the small "JGA" medallion is early as well as the split knurl pin . The price for the pistol in 1931 was $2.50, So it appears the European "Dolla " name is not appropriate for the US imported versions and I would assume the Dolla version was primarily a European version and the "JGA" was primarily used on the US imported version. Of course these are not hard and fast rules and some Dolla's have ended up in the US. Remember these were cheap practically throwaway pistol and they were probably not too stringent on which labeled pistol were sent where. Also it would appear that the REG.U.S. PAT was later added for the sake of the US market.
Too be Clear, "Made in Germany" labeled pistols are found with both "Dolla Mark II" and "JGA" medallions. They also both have either "DRGM" or " REG.U.S. PAT" impressed on the wood. It appears Dolla marked guns are primarily geared to the European market.
"Made in Japan" labeled pistols are found with both "LOC" and "JGA" medallions. They have only " REG.U.S. PAT" impressed on the wood. It appears Japan marked guns are geared to only the US market. I have not found an advertisement with a "LOC" labeled pistol, which is not surprising since it appears the same illustration circa 1931 was used on all subsequent US advertisements by all importers for the next ten years. This also explains why the updated "JGA" emblem which is the one most commonly found on pistols is not illustrated in any advertisement.
I don't have a lot of info regarding advertisements for the "Dolla" in Great Britain other than one undated advertisement. Hopefully someone has some dated Dolla Mark II advertisements to date if the Dolla name is ever dropped for just the JGA name. I noticed the later German embossed labeled boxes list "JGA" and are not "Dolla". The embossed boxes were late 1930s."
John Griffiths, author of The Encyclopedia of Spring Air Pistols, who raised the possibility of the 'both made in Germany' theory, replied:
"As the originator of the (tentative) theory that the “Made in Japan” LOC pistol was probably made in Germany rather than Japan, I have been following this thread with interest. I will concede that on the available evidence we can’t really be sure one way or the other, and all we can do is weigh up the probabilities until hard evidence turns up. I personally feel that the ‘Made in Germany’ theory has the greater plausibility (at the present time) for the following reasons:
· The LOC pistol (and probably the JGA pistol stamped Made in Japan) seem to have appeared in the USA in about 1939, when Germany was embroiled in a massive war in Europe. The effort required to ship machinery, tooling, know-how, down to the finest detail (including box manufacture) over to Japan and set up a production unit, would seem a tad excessive in those difficult times, for what was basically a toy.
· The financial reward in US currency, much needed by Nazi Germany, from sales of the pistol would be minimal if the gun was being manufactured by a third party. So much simpler and more profitable to just ship the pre-made guns from Germany to an import/export agent in Japan.
· Japan had no history of spring air pistol manufacture at that time (apart from one little known pistol last heard of in 1930), and has had none since. The sudden manufacture of this pistol in Japan in about 1939 would seem to be out of character.
· Finally, the stamping on the heel of the LOC grip “ Reg. US Pat” we know is a blatant lie. So if one stamping is a deliberate deception, why not the other one, “Made in Japan”?
This all smacks of Nazi Germany misinformation, which they were very adept at.
The main argument in favour of the ‘Made in Japan’ theory seems to be the subtle difference in cylinder contours between the LOC and pre-1939 JGA pistols. This could be explained by various factors. For example, wear and tear on the steel drawing machinery, as the LOC was being made at the end of the production lifetime of the pistol. Alternatively the steel tubing may have been sourced from a different supplier due to wartime disruption in Germany
It seems that Anschutz were very market savvy and readily allowed their Mark II push-barrel pistol to be rebadged by distributors, not only for the American market, but also in Great Britain and even in Germany. For example, around 1933 Burgsmuller catalogued the pistol as the “Treffer” and pictures the pistol with an unusual medallion, and in 1934 the German distributor Noris advertised the gun as the ‘Kinderpistole’ and pictured the gun with a completely blank grip; Geco in 1937 in their catalogue pictured a boxed set where the pistol shows and even sharper demarcation where the cylinder taper starts, and the medallion hole in the grip carries a blank disc. I have never come across the name Dolla for the pistol in any German language catalogue (including Anschutz catalogues), but I have an example of a German distributor’s catalogue translated for the UK market, where the guns are listed as Dolla, and the catalogue illustration shows the medallion to be marked Dolla. The German equivalent catalogue depicts the pistol as the JGA.
I will be very interested to see your pictures when you have them, especially if you can throw more light onto this question.
Regards,
JohnG"
The discussion continued:
I want this to be a cordial examination of facts and information and Hopefully I'll try not to get too long winded on this reply!!
I agree we will never know absolutely for sure the true story on many of the airguns I have research since no one back in the day thought that anyone would care about the history. Although the theory of Nazi subterfuge is possible, I think it is highly unlikely.
I contend the "Made in Japan" stamp means it was made in Japan, and there was no grand conspiracy or subterfuge other than Anschutz opting to receive licensing fees from a Japanese firm for a pistol it would no longer export to the US. In the end it appears the Japanese firm screwed over Anschutz and dropped the JGA name and continued manufacturing under the "LOC" name.
In researching the "MADE IN JAPAN" stamp, I start by accepting the grip stamp at face value and then look for evidence that it is not true.
I reread your post in the Airgun Gallery regarding why you thought it was Nazi subterfuge before replying. You state three reasons why you thought it was Nazi Subterfuge
First you state you closely examined the guns and found:
"Every part, including screws, proved to be identical and interchangeable with the JGA, and the materials used and the various dimensions of the guns were identical."
Secondly you state:
" it claims to have a registered US patent, and yet no such patent exists."
and later repeat that point in your reply to my post:
"Finally, the stamping on the heel of the LOC grip “ Reg. US Pat” we know is a blatant lie. So if one stamping is a deliberate deception, why not the other one, “Made in Japan”?
Thirdly you state:
"it claims to have been made in Japan. Japanese spring air pistols are virtually unknown - in fact only one comes to mind, and that dates to about 1930."
So in summary your three points pointing to Nazi subterfuge is
1. the two pistols are materially identical in every way
2. No US patent exist so the other stamping is suspect.
3. Spring air pistols are virtually unknown in prewar Japan.
Let me address your points before listing why I think the pistols in question were made in Japan.
Point one: The pistols are not materially identical. I have noted numerous small subtle differences between German and Japanese label pistols. I only posted a picture of the most obvious, which was the nickel plated barrel shroud. These are rather simply constructed pistols, and even when a new manufacturer tries to make the gun the same, small subtle differences crop up. I noticed that when manufacturers changed on the Rochester, Apache and Plainsman rifles. When comparing the LOC vs JGA pistols, I noticed subtle differences on the front sights, rear sights , spring thumbscrew, and the impressed stamp on the grip.
Point two: The "REG U.S. PAT" is not a blatant lie. You misunderstood what that stamp means. It does not mean that a US patent was applied for or granted. "REG U.S. PAT" is used for trademarks, and goods with this stamp have registered their trademark with the U.S. Patent office. In the United States, it is proper to use "REG U.S. PAT" only to give notice that a trademark has been federally registered in the United States Patent and Trademark Office.
Point three: I have little knowledge regarding Spring Air pistols in prewar Japan, but that does not mean Japan was incapable of manufacturing this rather simple design. These simple pistols were often looked upon as toys geared for children. I do know that there was rapid growth in Japan's Toy industry between WW1 and WW2, and Germany and Japan shared close ties prior to Americas entry into the war.
So in my list supporting each theory I discounted your first two points for the reasons I listed.
Manufactured in Japan theory Nazi Subterfuge/German made theory
1 Visible "Made in Japan" grip stamp 1 Spring air pistols are virtually unknown in prewar Japan
2 Noticable differences in details comparing
actual Japan vs German made examples
3 Different emblems on grip
4 Trade restrictions on German goods prior to war
5 Japan and Germany good relationship prior to war
6. Japan's rise as a major toy producer between WW1 and WW2
I think that although the pistols are very close in appearance the Japanese manufacture pistol is very slightly cruder in fit and finish. The emblem lacks detail and is cruder in appearance, the nickel plated barrel shroud lacks the step before the taper, and the rear sights are cruder in profile. I think more than anything else the slightly cruder appearance of the Made in Japan labeled pistols is not something Anschutz would produce. Prewar Japanese manufactured products were cruder, and not to the standards they would display years later.
I agree we will never know absolutely for sure the true story on many of the airguns I have research since no one back in the day thought that anyone would care about the history. Although the theory of Nazi subterfuge is possible, I think it is highly unlikely.
I contend the "Made in Japan" stamp means it was made in Japan, and there was no grand conspiracy or subterfuge other than Anschutz opting to receive licensing fees from a Japanese firm for a pistol it would no longer export to the US. In the end it appears the Japanese firm screwed over Anschutz and dropped the JGA name and continued manufacturing under the "LOC" name.
In researching the "MADE IN JAPAN" stamp, I start by accepting the grip stamp at face value and then look for evidence that it is not true.
I reread your post in the Airgun Gallery regarding why you thought it was Nazi subterfuge before replying. You state three reasons why you thought it was Nazi Subterfuge
First you state you closely examined the guns and found:
"Every part, including screws, proved to be identical and interchangeable with the JGA, and the materials used and the various dimensions of the guns were identical."
Secondly you state:
" it claims to have a registered US patent, and yet no such patent exists."
and later repeat that point in your reply to my post:
"Finally, the stamping on the heel of the LOC grip “ Reg. US Pat” we know is a blatant lie. So if one stamping is a deliberate deception, why not the other one, “Made in Japan”?
Thirdly you state:
"it claims to have been made in Japan. Japanese spring air pistols are virtually unknown - in fact only one comes to mind, and that dates to about 1930."
So in summary your three points pointing to Nazi subterfuge is
1. the two pistols are materially identical in every way
2. No US patent exist so the other stamping is suspect.
3. Spring air pistols are virtually unknown in prewar Japan.
Let me address your points before listing why I think the pistols in question were made in Japan.
Point one: The pistols are not materially identical. I have noted numerous small subtle differences between German and Japanese label pistols. I only posted a picture of the most obvious, which was the nickel plated barrel shroud. These are rather simply constructed pistols, and even when a new manufacturer tries to make the gun the same, small subtle differences crop up. I noticed that when manufacturers changed on the Rochester, Apache and Plainsman rifles. When comparing the LOC vs JGA pistols, I noticed subtle differences on the front sights, rear sights , spring thumbscrew, and the impressed stamp on the grip.
Point two: The "REG U.S. PAT" is not a blatant lie. You misunderstood what that stamp means. It does not mean that a US patent was applied for or granted. "REG U.S. PAT" is used for trademarks, and goods with this stamp have registered their trademark with the U.S. Patent office. In the United States, it is proper to use "REG U.S. PAT" only to give notice that a trademark has been federally registered in the United States Patent and Trademark Office.
Point three: I have little knowledge regarding Spring Air pistols in prewar Japan, but that does not mean Japan was incapable of manufacturing this rather simple design. These simple pistols were often looked upon as toys geared for children. I do know that there was rapid growth in Japan's Toy industry between WW1 and WW2, and Germany and Japan shared close ties prior to Americas entry into the war.
So in my list supporting each theory I discounted your first two points for the reasons I listed.
Manufactured in Japan theory Nazi Subterfuge/German made theory
1 Visible "Made in Japan" grip stamp 1 Spring air pistols are virtually unknown in prewar Japan
2 Noticable differences in details comparing
actual Japan vs German made examples
3 Different emblems on grip
4 Trade restrictions on German goods prior to war
5 Japan and Germany good relationship prior to war
6. Japan's rise as a major toy producer between WW1 and WW2
I think that although the pistols are very close in appearance the Japanese manufacture pistol is very slightly cruder in fit and finish. The emblem lacks detail and is cruder in appearance, the nickel plated barrel shroud lacks the step before the taper, and the rear sights are cruder in profile. I think more than anything else the slightly cruder appearance of the Made in Japan labeled pistols is not something Anschutz would produce. Prewar Japanese manufactured products were cruder, and not to the standards they would display years later.
I have examine many photos of different JGA examples, but only a few actual examples that can be compared together. I will include some photos of group of small differences which taken as a whole, point to a different manufacturer.
Tapered barrel shroud LOC on top, Step tapered barrel shroud JGA bottom
Front sight rounded JGA left, Squarish LOC on right
Rear sight rounded JGA left, Squarish LOC on right
Better machined JGA on left, Cruder LOC on right
Cruder and smaller LOC thumbscrew on left, Larger better machined JGA thumbscrew on right
Sharp detailed JGA emblem verses the indistinct poorly struck LOC emblem
Larger lettering on LOC stamping. Lettering looks cleaner and more regular on JGA stamping.
Excerpt from article detailing rise of Japanese toy manufacturing.
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David W Trull
Thanks for your well thought out response. As I said previously, my theory that the LOC was made in Germany rather than Japan is just a tentative theory. As someone with a strong interest in airgun history, I am only interested in the truth, and would be delighted for hard evidence to turn up which resolved this question, whichever way it went. In fact, from my viewpoint, it would be preferable to establish that the LOC was of Japanese manufacture, as this would open up several new lines of research, both with respect to the Japanese airgun scene and the Anschutz company itself .
You make a very good point about the “Reg. U.S. Pat.” mark and I learnt something new. Strictly speaking it should have said “Reg. US. Pat. Off.” if referring to a trademark and not a patent (see https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/ ... clevstlrev) but I guess that this aberration is understandable given that the goods were of foreign origin.
The other piece of your evidence that threw me somewhat was the picture of a JGA stamped with both “Reg. U.S. Pat.” and “Made in Germany”. This does strongly suggest that the “Reg.U.S. Pat.” is not a fabrication, otherwise why be honest about the country of origin and then lie about the patent status? So weighing everything up, I need to retract my assertion that the statement was a “downright lie” and accept that it is true (unless of course some future search of the U.S. trademark proves otherwise).
You make a very good point about the “Reg. U.S. Pat.” mark and I learnt something new. Strictly speaking it should have said “Reg. US. Pat. Off.” if referring to a trademark and not a patent (see https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/ ... clevstlrev) but I guess that this aberration is understandable given that the goods were of foreign origin.
The other piece of your evidence that threw me somewhat was the picture of a JGA stamped with both “Reg. U.S. Pat.” and “Made in Germany”. This does strongly suggest that the “Reg.U.S. Pat.” is not a fabrication, otherwise why be honest about the country of origin and then lie about the patent status? So weighing everything up, I need to retract my assertion that the statement was a “downright lie” and accept that it is true (unless of course some future search of the U.S. trademark proves otherwise).
However, concerning the subtle structural differences that you outlined between the LOC and JGA pistols, I consider these differences to be rather weak evidence for Japanese manufacture. These variations can be explained readily by the fact that the LOC was the last batch of pistols to be made by Anschutz, and it is inevitable that there will be minor batch to batch structural variations in a pistol that has been produced over such a long period (10-11 years). In fact several variations have already been documented with the European distributed JGA pistols. For example, some pistols, were available in a black as well as a nickelled finish; nickel plated examples are known where the sights are nickel plated and do not have the usual black finish; breech screw pins with widely differing profiles are known. I have already made mention to variable grip décor, and the quality of grip medallions can vary noticeably, and for example the “Dolla” marked discs come across as somewhat cruder than the JGA discs (of which there are two and their relative qualities can also be a subjective matter). In addition, I would have expected a Japanese-made pistol to have shown much greater evidence of cost-cutting and poorer finish than found on the LOC. Just my opinion of course.
Finally, I would like to say that it is on record that Nazi Germany used third- party countries to get their goods imported into the USA in the early war years pre-Pearl Harbour. For example:
“The transatlantic trade between the US and Germany was decidedly anaemic by the invasion of Poland in 1939,……………………………………………... Direct American exports to Germany were nugatory while German imports trickled into the US via third-parties and typically consisted of smaller items like glass Christmas decorations.”
To summarise my current position on this question, I would say that your arguments have now converted me from an 80 : 20 position favouring of the “Made in Germany” theory, to about 60 : 40, still in favour. Still a way to go before I come over to your way of thinking, but I look forward to hearing any more evidence you may unearth which will persuade me further.
Well I got you to change 80:20 to 60:40 I'm enjoying the exchange of information
Besides taking the "Made in Japan" label at face value, I based my theory on the totality of changes when comparing the Made in Germany example to the made in Japan example. The front sight is different. the rear sight is different, the emblem is different, the grip stamping style is different, the spring thumbscrew is different, and finally the barrel shroud taper is different. All the changes at once on one pistol along with a "Made in Japan stamp" would indicate a change in manufacturer. Granted that small changes do occur over time during production, but a great number of changes all at once suggest a different manufacturer.
For example the most obvious and visible change is the taper on the barrel shroud. It is the one trait that is easily seen in photos. If the change in the shape of the barrel shroud occurred during regular production in Germany, you would expect some overlap on the different origin stamped pistols if in fact they were all produced in Germany and the Japan stamp was subterfuge. Either some Germany stamped pistols would have a smooth taper barrel shroud, or some Japan stamp pistols with a step taper barrel shroud. So far that has not been the case. Since the Barrel shroud taper can easily be seen in photos, I consulted my photo file examples for comparisons.
The sample size is relatively small with 33 examples: 25 Germany and 8 Japan. The Germany marked pistols include Dolla, JGA, Keenfire, and have either DRGM or REG.U.S.PAT in black or nickel finish. The Japan marked pistols include JGA and LOC and only have REG.U.S.PAT and nickel finish.
Here are the results:
All 25 German marked pistols have stepped tapers. There are no smooth taper German marked pistols.
All 8 Japan marked pistols have smooth tapers. There are no step taper Japan marked pistols.
If there was a running change during manufacturing in the German factory, you would expect to see some overlap.
The examination of examples so far show no overlap which suggest a different manufacturer.
Hopefully I can sway you from 60:40 Germany to 80:20 Japan
I've enjoyed this discussion
Dave
PS: I agree that there is so much peripheral information that must be researched and considered. I had to look up Patents, trademark procedures, treaty of versailles, Germany's hyperinflation after WW1, Germany's new restrictive gun laws, Germany and Japan trade and technology exchanges and relationships, Tripartite agreement, rise of Japan's manufacturing before the WW2 especially metal toys, prewar tariffs and embargos of German products and the history of Anschutz. Needless to say, all this is required to understand this period when some German Arms manufacturers began to expand into manufacturing and exporting Air guns to the British and American markets between WW1 and WW2. Yet often the Historical record is incomplete due to lack of documentation and one must simply make best guess suppositions from what little is known and thorough examination of known examples. Unfortunately that is the case with the "LOC" pistols, and I don't think it will ever be definitively proven one way or another. Those records probably don't exist anymore but we can always hope something definitive will turn up.
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David W Trull
The sudden manufacture of this pistol in Japan in about 1939 would seem to be out of character.
Also, probably not possible as there was a prohibition on metallic "toy" manufacturing from about 1937 as a consequence of shortages brought about by the Sino Japanese war.
8:33 PM - 12 days ago#16
Actually my research indicates metal toy production in Japan was not curtailed until 1940. The Sino-Japanese conflict did not significantly affect toy production. It wasn't until the US embargo in 1940 that Toy production was affected. As you know this embargo is one of the main causative factors leading to Japan's entry into the war.
"The United States embargoed scrap-metal shipments to Japan and closed the Panama Canal to Japanese shipping in 1940.[8] This hit Japan's economy particularly hard because 74.1% of Japan's scrap iron came from the United States in 1938"
As for Japans Metal Toy industry between WW1 and WW2, here are some excerpts from some articles on the subject:
"Collectors Weekly: When did the Japanese start making tinplate toys?
De Lespinay: The Japanese tin-toy industry began in the 1880s with inexpensive copies of European toys, mostly German ones. At that time, Germany absolutely dominated the world of toys. The Japanese started by making rudimentary models of ships from the Russo-Japanese War, plus novelty items. By 1905, they were making models of the first automobiles from lithographed and hand-bent sheet steel. By 1914, they’d tripled their exports. This trend continued into the 1930s, and the quality of their toys really improved while the German toys declined. Between the two wars and during the Depression, the U.S. toy industry was strangled by costs and low retail prices. The 5- and 10-cent models produced by TootsieToy dominated the market at that time.
By 1939, a few Japanese companies like CK, or Kuramochi Co., were producing large and splendid models of American cars such as Graham-Paige, Packard, Buick, Plymouth, and Chrysler. Simple but effective clockwork motors powered these toys—some even had electric lights. They made them in three sizes, from four to 12 inches, and they’re highly sought after today.
One Collector's Delightful Passion
Buriki: Japanese Tin Toys from the Golden Age of the American Automobile
An Exhibition of the Yoku Tanaka Collection, Japan Society, New York City
9 July–16 August 2009
Today, Tanaka is the proud owner of a collection featuring some of the best examples of Japanese tin toys, representing the two great peaks in the history of Japanese tin-toy manufacture prior to and immediately after World War II.
The term 'buriki' derives from the Dutch word for tin toy ('blik'). The history of buriki extends more than a century, prior to World War I. The success of imported German train and boat models (the most accomplished made in Nuremberg) led Japanese manufacturers to follow suit. Unfortunately, they were unable to equal the superlative styling and technical execution of their German counterparts, and most Japanese-made examples from the period are rough (consisting of a few lithographed sheets of metal that were bent into shape and decorated with basic details only). But by the beginning of the First World War, Japanese manufacturers were ready to take a lead in the marketplace. With access to advanced machinery and clockwork imported from overseas, they more than tripled their overseas sales of tin toys while their competitors were diverted by the approaching crisis. At the end of World War I, Japan was, indeed, a dominant force in the international toy market. Success was sweet, but short lived. In 1940, all manufacturing efforts in Japan shifted to wartime production as the country geared up for World War II."
Whether it was a Japanese toy manufacturer or some other Japanese firm, Japan was perfectly capable of manufacturing the simple design of the JGA spring barrel pistol.
A toy manufacturer being called upon to produce an airgun is not unheard of. In the United States, the Athearn toy Train manufacturers took over manufacturing of the Challenger Plainsman rifle after the original manufacturer Burhans and Associates went bankrupt.
Here is one more intriguing fact regarding the "LOC" labeled pistol. There is no "L" in the Japanese language. The L and R is regarded as the same letter. So you will not find a Japanese company using "L" in its name. Was "LOC" a label agreed upon by the Japanese firm and Anshutz since "L" is not used in the Japanese language. Just another fact to obscure its true origin!!
Regardless, the scrap steel embargo of 1940 would have limited a Japanese manufactured pistol to only 1939-1940. There are American advertisements for the JGA pistol into 1940, in fact, that is the last year they are listed in the US. Undoubtedly these 1940 ads are for the Japan labeled pistols. The Ad has a list price of $2.39 from Johnson Smith Co, one of the cheapest mail order suppliers around. Another factual bone to chew on!!
Last Prewar JGA Advertisement
The Trademark notification is shortened to REG.U.S.Pat on the pistol grip of The German and Japan marked pistols but written out more fully on BOTH OF the boxes,
REG.U.S. PATENT OFFICE. See pictures below:
German box with embossed stamped lettering
Embossed lettering on Deluxe German box.
Non-embossed lettering on Japan labeled box
Dave
7:55 AM - 10 days ago#17
I just received the "Made in Japan" "JGA" badge pistol in the mail today. I immediately cleaned it up a bit and compared it to both the "LOC" medallion pistol and the German made "JGA". After very close examination of the pistols, I am even more convinced than ever that the "Made in Japan" pistols are "made in Japan" copies of the Anschutz spring barrel pistol. These Japanese pistols are well made copies but do not reach the level of quality of the German made pistols. The Japanese version as I said before, is slightly cruder in the hardware. I do not believe the myriad number of small differences can be attributed to manufacturing variances in the German plant. The Japanese version just looks a little cheaper in construction.
When closely examining the new "Made in Japan" JGA badge pistol, It shares all the qualities I mentioned for the "LOC" pistol. I noticed it had the smooth taper barrel shroud and the same shaped bottom on the sights and the front sight had the same left misalignment of a few degrees as the "LOC" pistol.
German sight on left - then JGA japan - LOC Japan
The Japanese JGA also had the same machine mark on the rear sight as the LOC pistol. The manufacturing machinery used in Japan repeats this slight misalignment on both of these pistols front sights. It's possible all the Japanese pistols may have this misaligned front sight. The German JGA pistol had no stamping mark on the rear sight as the japanese pistols and the front sight is not misaligned.
German sight on left - then LOC japan - JGA Japan
I also notice a major difference between the Japanese and German versions of the pistol which I don't think can be attributed to manufacturing variance at a German plant. The stamped steel assembly on the bottom of the pistol that the wooden grip attaches to is significantly thinner on the Japanese version. This points to a different manufacturer producing a cheaper copy of the German version.
- German left - Japan right
Last but not least, the poor quality of the stamped brass "JGA" medallion further supports the Japanese manufacturer instead of Nazi subterfuge. Just like in coin collecting, you can spot a counterfeit by the weak detail and poor quality of the main image and the lettering in the medallion. The Japanese "JGA" medallion is extremely weak in detail with total loss of detail in the background. The letters actually do not match the letters on the German "JGA" medallion. The shapes are different!
Actually it is a rather poor copy of the German JGA medallion.
- German left - Japan right
Grip stamps are consistent in size and font on the Japan stamped pistols even though the medallion changed.
- Consistent Made in Japan stamps
- JGA Japan grip stamp
So we have the documentary proof of both the box and grip stating "Made in Japan" and both the strong structural and hardware differences and the differences in quality in the known examples when compared to German made pistols, which leads me to conclude that these are indeed Japanese made.
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David W Trull
6:52 PM - 8 days ago
You are to be commended for your meticulous structural analysis of these guns, and your excellent photographs. This has encouraged me to have a closer look at my LOC and Dolla examples, in particular their interiors, and as I was doing this I was struck, not by the tiny differences between them, but the remarkable similarities they share, if indeed one was made in Germany and the other in Japan.
I realised that making a pistol, even one of this lowly character, involves a lot of outsourcing, unlike tinplate toys. For example, springs would not be made in-house by Anschutz, but obtained from a spring-making specialist; metal extrusions for the cylinder, metal tubing for the barrel; die stamping for the grip medallions; nickel plating; it is unlikely that all these activities would be carried out on the Anschutz premises, as the company was principally an arms manufacturer and such specialisations have little to do with serious gun making. With this in mind, I had a closer look at those parts of the LOC pistol, where one would expect to see evidence of different outsourcing, or use of different materials, or different machining characteristics, if the guns had been made in these two culturally very different countries.
If made in Japan, the guns would have been made with economy in mind (given that they only retailed for about $3 and profit was the name of the game). As there would be no quality control from Anschutz, given that they were based on the other side of the world and were embroiled in the Nazi arms program, so the Japanese company would have had complete freedom to cut as many corners as they wished. That would apply to outsourcing, workshop practice, materials, and even the boxes they were supplied in.
My examination, and your own, findings show that there are none of these major differences between the two guns that one might expect to see.
In contrast, the small differences you have noted are perfectly consistent with the LOC being made in Germany at a time of shortages, when materials and skilled labour were being prioritised for the war effort and air guns would have been of very low priority. And none were more affected by this than arms manufacturers like Anschutz. This would account for thinner gauge metal being used for the pistol's frame, and less meticulous attention to machining etc. These early wartime pistols would have been saleable only in the USA at that time, the European market having disappeared, but there were still major US trade barriers to be overcome. What simpler than to set up an agent in Japan to handle the import and export of these pistols to the USA, using well documented Nazi deceit to avoid the barriers?
The alternative, setting up a complete production unit thousands of miles away in Japan to make a pistol identical to the German-made pistol, at a time when war was imminent, sending personnel over there to ensure that everything worked properly, finding Japanese suppliers of perfectly identical springs, screws, die-stamped medallions, etc. etc. ,and all to get a pistol that retailed for less than $3 into the USA seems extremely implausible in comparison.
The evolution of the markings on the JGA pistol in the late 1930’s also fits nicely with the increasing difficulty Germany was finding in selling its good in the USA. I can just see USA retailers, once good customers of Anschutz, asking Anschutz to try to mitigate this public aversion to German products. Initially a Reg. U.S. Pat. marking was added to Made in Germany, perhaps to give it a pseudo-American image. This was not enough, and Made in Germany was soon replaced by Made in Europe. With most of Europe under Nazi rule, this then had to be replaced with Made in Japan, and the all-too familiar name JGA replaced by the fictional name LOC . And finally it all came to an end with Pearl Harbour.
So looking at the overall picture, I am afraid that I have now come round to favouring the LOC as a German-made product with a balance of probability in the ratio about 90 : 10.
Of course, there is also a middle ground situation. Anschutz could have shipped all the components to Japan and had them assembled there. In that case the “Made in Japan” stamping would have some element of truth. Perhaps that is the most likely scenario?
10:23 PM - 8 days ago#19
There is a third possible scenario that makes sense and fits the known facts just as well and is very plausible.
Anschutz simply quits production of the Anschutz JGA spring barrel pistol before 1939 due to increased demands to produce war material and the US embargo of German goods. The Nazi's are not that concerned about the limited amount of money this cheap exported spring pistols produces and do not devise an elaborate scheme to sneak it into the US market. The Nazi's don't care about this "toy" pistol and are happy Anschutz is concentrating with weapons production.
So since the German JGA pistol is no longer available, American importers want a replacement product to sell. The Japanese either see an opportunity or are asked by American importers to produce a knockoff unauthorized copy of the JGA pistol to market to the American public. This would require no licensing fee, and no input from Anschutz. At this point why would Anschutz care about a "toy" pistol now out of production, based on a 50 year old expired patent and built half way around the world. Japan has a long history of copying European designs producing knock-offs. The Japanese set about making an unauthorized copy of the German JGA pistol which is cruder in construction and fit and finish, but will pass as the same as the German pistol under cursory examination. To complete the illusion, the Japanese copy the box graphics as well. Although the Pistol is a knock-off of the German JGA pistol, these imported items must have the correct place of origin so "Made in Japan" is placed on the pistol grip and box instead of Germany. Who would notice the different place of Origin?? It seems practically no one. This fact can be attested to by this issue not surfacing for 80 years. Within a year, the Japanese are forced to change the name of the pistol from "JGA" to "LOC". Why you might ask? Well Anschutz did not have a patent on the design so anyone could copy it freely and they could do nothing about it. But Anschutz did register the JGA trade mark!! Importers selling the knockoff copies could be liable for damages so the Name was changed on the pistol and box graphics and everything else stayed the same.
Frankly after typing this out, this scenario seems more and more plausible. The poorer construction of the copy. The made in Japan labeling. The trademarking of only the JGA name and the switch to the "LOC" name, these facts fit the scenario extremely well.
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David W Trull
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10:46 PM - 8 days ago
An interesting fourth option.
The only thing that does not sit comfortably with me is that the differences you have unearthed are really very subtle. For a three dollar product, I would expect a Japanese knock-off to exhibit much cruder differences, especially with the internals which are invisible to the retailer. The internals of my LOC and Dolla are indistinguishable. Even the spring has the same wire diameter and number of coils.
The only thing that does not sit comfortably with me is that the differences you have unearthed are really very subtle. For a three dollar product, I would expect a Japanese knock-off to exhibit much cruder differences, especially with the internals which are invisible to the retailer. The internals of my LOC and Dolla are indistinguishable. Even the spring has the same wire diameter and number of coils.
Regarding a Japanese Knockoff copy:
The purpose of a knock off copy is to fool someone into thinking it is the genuine article.
If this is indeed a Japanese copy, it would be made to resemble its German counterpart as closely as possible to the casual observer.
The purpose of a knock off copy is to fool someone into thinking it is the genuine article.
If this is indeed a Japanese copy, it would be made to resemble its German counterpart as closely as possible to the casual observer.
It's the subtle differences and how well the parts are machined that are the cues that give it away. I decide to disassemble the pistols to see if the internal components showed the same cruder appearance as the external components or if they are identical to internals of the German made pistol.
What I found is that they appear very similar but are not the same and the Japanese components are slightly different and cruder in manufacturing and appearance. Neither pistol had any rust internally and was cleaned for the photos to see the details more clearly.
- German top - Japanese Bottom
These do not appear the same. The uncompressed length on the German spring is longer and the effort to compress the spring is greater. I know since it was much harder to compress the spring on the german pistol to reassemble it. Also the shape of the flattened area at the end of the coils are different
- German on top - Japanese on bottom
The air hole is chamfered on the German barrel on top. it is not chamfered on the Japanese JGA.
- German left - Japanese on right
- German left - Japanese right
The machining on the seal retaining nut is much better on the German pistol than the Japanese pistol and the nut is slightly taller.
- German top - Japanese bottom
The outside barrel surface is superior and smoother on the German pistol. The japanese barrel was cruder as shown in the photo. There was no appearance of rust present on either barrels. It could have been cleaned up in the past but I think the imperfections may be due to the poor quality of steel available.
If these were both made in Germany, I would expect to see an equal distribution of cruder finishes, but instead all the cruder parts are on the Japanese labeled pistols.
The examples used in the pictures above to show differences are of the "JGA" made in Germany pistol and the 'JGA" made in Japan pistol
I guess you have pretty much settled into the Nazi Subterfuge camp regarding theories on the origin of the Japan labeled pistols.
I have really enjoyed bouncing these theories around with you!!
Below is the boxes for the Japanese pistols:
- LOC Japan on top - JGA Japan bottom
- Gimbels price tag for japanese JGA
All three pistols in boxes:
From top to bottom
JGA Germany
JGA Japan
LOC Japan
- top- JGA Germany middle- JGA Japan bottom- LOC japan
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David W Trull
Many thanks for the new pictures. I have enjoyed our discussion and learned some useful things.
No, I am not completely sold on the fake “ Made in Japan” theory, it is just that the alternative theory , that the LOC was indeed made in Japan, would have major ramifications for air pistol history and so needs careful scrutiny before being accepted as gospel. I have been playing more the role of devil’s advocate, rather than as a champion of Nazi subterfuge, testing your evidence as best I can and trying to decide what is subjective and what is unarguable.
The reasons for saying that a “Made in Japan” LOC would be of major significance are twofold. Firstly, up to now Japan has had virtually no recorded history of spring air pistol manufacture. (The following is the only example I have come across, as a catalogue item from 1930 . No examples of this pistol are yet known. As you can see, it does not paint a flattering picture of Japanese air pistol technology at that time).
The second reason is that, if the LOC or JGA was made in Japan, this would be the only known example of a German airgun manufacturer outsourcing manufacture of one of their own products to a foreign country. This would have needed a very unusual set of circumstances to bring it about.
Now to the question of subjectivity of evidence. You have emphasised the poorer machining quality of the Japanese JGA and LOC compared to the German-made JGA. I worry about this, because, as I have stated before, such differences can be accounted for by wartime austerity in Germany. I have had a closer look at my LOC and Dolla Mk 2 pistols, and to be honest, I cannot say that one is any better engineered than the other. Here are some pictures to show what I mean. In fact, in some respects the LOC seems to be better machined than the Dolla.
Similarities of hole dimensions, spring dimensions, thread on the breech pin are noteworthy. The elongated holes in the frame for one of the grip pins are present in both guns, and I find this puzzling. Could both have been drilled with the same dodgy jig and needed correcting, or is the elongation some way of mitigating the risk of splitting the rather fragile stock? The fact that the elongated hole is present in both guns seems to go against the idea that one is a cheap copy of the other.
However, to demonstrate my impartiality, I did pick up one major difference which supports the ‘made in Japan’ theory. I was surprised to find that the muzzle nut from the Dolla screwed readily onto the LOC barrel, but there was no way I could get the LOC nut onto the Dolla barrel. Closer inspection showed that although the threads on both barrels had identical pitch, the LOC thread had flattened crests, making for a smaller diameter. You can see this more clearly in the following.
This is undoubted evidence of poorer machining in the LOC. The LOC nut had been machined to compensate, and it fitted tightly on the thread, whereas the Dolla nut was relatively slack.
I was interested in Citizen Kane’s alternative theory, and especially his comment“Is almost the entire 1939 Stoeger catalogue considered the work of Nazi subterfuge?” If Stoeger were selling several guns of very obvious German origin in 1939 and 1940, then it would knock on the head the idea that German guns were facing major import barriers into the USA. Unfortunately I do not have access to Stoeger catalogues from those years, so I can’t make a judgement. The only wartime Stoeger catalogue I have is from 1944, and not surprisingly it features only American guns and accessories. Even so, it is still a hefty volume, running to 512 pages.
Does anyone have a 1939 or 1940 Stoeger catalogue that might add useful information into the pot?
Also, Dave, could I ask you to check if the front pin hole in the trigger housing has been elongated in any of you pistols, and if the muzzle nuts on the ‘Made in Japan’ pistols are too tight to go on the normal JGA barrels?
All very interesting stuff to the few. Incredibly unimportant to the many!
@ccdjg
You can see the airgun part of the 1939 Stoeger Catalogue on the VAG: https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/postid/577/ However, the firearms sections would be more of interest in terms of German products on offer - replete with Mauser, Steyr Mannlicher, Hensoldt, Luger etc. Images from that catalogue are readily available on Google
You can see the airgun part of the 1939 Stoeger Catalogue on the VAG: https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/postid/577/ However, the firearms sections would be more of interest in terms of German products on offer - replete with Mauser, Steyr Mannlicher, Hensoldt, Luger etc. Images from that catalogue are readily available on Google
1:23 AM - 7 days ago#26
I am sorry, I should have been more specific when I was comparing the Japanese pistol vs German pistol.
I was comparing the JGA badge Japan pistol to the JGA badge German pistol. I wanted to compare apples to apples so to speak in regards to this being a knockoff copy since they are badged the same and have different stated origins on the grip and box. I did not include any pictures of my LOC pistol in my last post.
I was comparing the JGA badge Japan pistol to the JGA badge German pistol. I wanted to compare apples to apples so to speak in regards to this being a knockoff copy since they are badged the same and have different stated origins on the grip and box. I did not include any pictures of my LOC pistol in my last post.
I do not have any Dolla pistols to examine but it appears from what information I can find, they were primarily for the european market. I'm also relatively sure they were the first of this new style to hit the market and I believe The JGA badge guns may have come later. All the American advertisements are for the JGA badged pistols and date from 1931 to 1940. There are no advertisements for a Dolla Mark II in the US that I can find. If the Dolla pistols are in fact earlier examples of this pistol, it may explain its initial cruder quality. Perhaps Dated Dolla and JGA ads are available in the UK.
I got out my LOC Japan and JGA german pistols to examine the points you made in your examination and compare findings
1. The muzzle nut from both my LOC pistol and JGA Japan pistol will not screw on to the JGA German pistol. It is not interchangable with the German produced pistol. The diameter of the threaded portion of both "made in Japan labeled pistol barrels are smaller just like your pistol. Since the issues with the thumbscrew nut from both my Japan pistols matches the nut from your LOC pistol, it appears it would indicates this is a trait of the Japanese pistols that they all have and it was not individually machined to compensate. I also laid the threads together from both a German and Japanese pistols, and besides the noticable smaller diameter of the thread portions of the Japanese marked barrel, the depth of the threads are different. You can especially see the difference by the shadow the threads cast on the white background. ( I think this shared trait strongly suggests another manufacturer and supports Japanese origin.) I'm glad you noticed it because I did not.
- LOC Japan Left - JGA German right
2. I noticed the elongated hole in your LOC pistol appears to have been factory made and symmetrical. The hole in the dolla in comparison appears distorted and not symmetrical horizontally.
The hole in my LOC pistol perfectly matches yours in appearance, which i feel indicates it was manufactured that way.
The grips are intact on my German JGA so I couldn't check that pistol.
The Japan JGA has broken grips so I checked the hole on that pistol. The holes does not match the LOC pistol. It is not elongated .
3. Getting back to the JGA Japan copy/knockoff verses the JGA Germany pistol comparisons, The springs as you can see are different lengths and I just counted the turns and they are different!
The German pistol has 45 turns and Japanese JGA pistol has 40 turns. The 40 coil spring is not broken and is finished and flattened on each end.
The differences between the alleged JGA Japan copy/knockoff and the German JGA are now confirmed as both internal and external and includes the different threads on the barrel and non interchangeable spring nut.
I could not count the coils on my LOC pistol because the spring is broken.
I did not mention this before.... The quality of the "LOC" pistol is better than the JGA japan pistol that I called a knockoff copy. The JGA germany pistol has the best Quality of contruction of the three pistols followed by the Japan LOC and the weakest in quality is the JGA Japan pistol. Its not to say the JGA japan pistol is terrible, it works fine and looks pretty good, it just does not look as good, quality wise when compared to the other pistols. I wonder if the copies were cruder when they first started and improved by the time they changed the name to "LOC".
I do know that Stoeger sold German made airguns under their brand name to hide the airguns origin, stating ONLY that they were made in Europe. My 1934 catalog lists Stoeger models 2000, 3100, 3101-2 and 3102-3 were all German made Haenels sold under the Stoeger name but Haenel is never mentioned. Later in the 1940 catalog these same model rifles were sold as Stoeger Haenels with the same model numbers and no mention of origin not even Europe. I suspect those rifles may have been left over Stoegers inventory since Stoegers had been selling these same rifles under the Stoeger name for at least 7 years or longer.
- Stoeger 1934
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David W Trull
I suppose a question is when was the 1939 Stoeger catalogue actually printed and published?
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If we accept that the pistols were marketed from late 1938 the Nazi subterfuge angle becomes moot. The US Neutrality acts (1935 to 1938) concerned itself primarily with exports. In November 1939 a reworked version of the Neutrality Act was signed into law and it carried the so called Cash and Carry provisions, for the purposes of this discussion the important bit is the new requirement that importers and exporters of arms were required to have a licence to do so (a provision that stands to this day). A more fulsome trade embargo with axis powers would only come late in 1940.
4:31 PM - 7 days ago#29
I have found that most catalogs are published around 3 months before the cover date, so a 1939 catalog was published around October 1938. I also found that a vendor on ebay is reproducing old arms catalogs and not only has many Stoeger catalogs, but has the 1935, 1936 and 1939 Midlands Birmingham England catalogs. An index of contents for these catalogs list the "Dolla" pistol for all three years. If correct, this would indicate that "Dolla" branding was primarily a European Marketing thing and Dolla pistols were sold in the UK until at least 1938.
Were JGA badged pistols sold in the UK in the 1930's or were they primarily the Dolla badged pistols. A known JGA badge pistol in a German box would tend to indicate that in Germany these pistols at one time were marketed as JGA. Lots to think about.
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David W Trull
Thanks to the suggestion from Citizen Kane I carried out a Google search (why didn’t I think of that?), and found a detailed list of the contents of the 1940 Stoeger catalogue here https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it ... em_id=1004
In the list I found plenty of references to German guns (Luger, Mannlicher Schoenhauer, Mauser, and even an airgun, in the form of the Schmeisser bolt-action air rifle.) Aha! I thought, this more or less knocks on the head the idea that Germany had to resort to deception to get its products onto the American market in the 1939-40 period. My relief that this puzzle might be solved was short-lived, when I saw that the catalogue was also offering the Webley Senior and Mark 1 air pistols, and Webley Mark 2 air rifle. Manufacture of these in the UK ceased at the outbreak of war in 1939, so it seemed that Stoeger kept good stocks of guns and so unfortunately we can’t read too much into the presence of German guns in the catalogue.
Interestingly, the 1941 catalogue ( https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it ... em_id=2342) no longer lists any German guns, although there is mention of parts for Mauser and Walthers, which must be presumably old stock given the war situation.
With reference to the history of the Dolla Mark 2 version of the JGA, I can give you some information. The first catalogue appearance of the JGA / Dolla Mark 2 pistol was in 1929, the JGA name being used in German home-market catalogues and the Dolla Mark 2 name in English language German export catalogues. Interestingly, 1930 English home-based catalogues listed the pistol as the ‘Dolla Mark 2 (Foreign)’ but the accompanying catalogue illustrations showed the pistol having the JGA medallion. It was only later that the Dolla Mark 2 " medallion appeared on the UK imported guns, but I have not been able to ascertain exactly when.
In the 1932 Anschutz factory catalogue the Dolla Mark 1 (cast iron) was still being offered alongside the Dolla Mark 2 (although as this was a German publication, the names Dolla were not in evidence, and they were both simply referred to as “JGA Luftpistole”). By about 1934 the pistol was proving very successful, and was appearing in a wider range of German distributors' catalogues. This led to some rebadging of the pistol and changes to the medallion, both in Germany and the USA. German variations I have mentioned previously. The USA picture you probably know more about than I do, and the earliest USA catalogue references to the Keenfire and the Big Chief re-brandings I have come across date to 1936. By 1939 the situation in Germany and UK becomes unclear due to lack of catalogue data.
In the list I found plenty of references to German guns (Luger, Mannlicher Schoenhauer, Mauser, and even an airgun, in the form of the Schmeisser bolt-action air rifle.) Aha! I thought, this more or less knocks on the head the idea that Germany had to resort to deception to get its products onto the American market in the 1939-40 period. My relief that this puzzle might be solved was short-lived, when I saw that the catalogue was also offering the Webley Senior and Mark 1 air pistols, and Webley Mark 2 air rifle. Manufacture of these in the UK ceased at the outbreak of war in 1939, so it seemed that Stoeger kept good stocks of guns and so unfortunately we can’t read too much into the presence of German guns in the catalogue.
Interestingly, the 1941 catalogue ( https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it ... em_id=2342) no longer lists any German guns, although there is mention of parts for Mauser and Walthers, which must be presumably old stock given the war situation.
With reference to the history of the Dolla Mark 2 version of the JGA, I can give you some information. The first catalogue appearance of the JGA / Dolla Mark 2 pistol was in 1929, the JGA name being used in German home-market catalogues and the Dolla Mark 2 name in English language German export catalogues. Interestingly, 1930 English home-based catalogues listed the pistol as the ‘Dolla Mark 2 (Foreign)’ but the accompanying catalogue illustrations showed the pistol having the JGA medallion. It was only later that the Dolla Mark 2 " medallion appeared on the UK imported guns, but I have not been able to ascertain exactly when.
In the 1932 Anschutz factory catalogue the Dolla Mark 1 (cast iron) was still being offered alongside the Dolla Mark 2 (although as this was a German publication, the names Dolla were not in evidence, and they were both simply referred to as “JGA Luftpistole”). By about 1934 the pistol was proving very successful, and was appearing in a wider range of German distributors' catalogues. This led to some rebadging of the pistol and changes to the medallion, both in Germany and the USA. German variations I have mentioned previously. The USA picture you probably know more about than I do, and the earliest USA catalogue references to the Keenfire and the Big Chief re-brandings I have come across date to 1936. By 1939 the situation in Germany and UK becomes unclear due to lack of catalogue data.
1937 JG Anschutz catalogue excerpt. 
ccdjg wrote: ↑
5:02 PM - 7 days agoBy 1939 the situation in Germany and UK becomes unclear due to lack of catalogue data.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_ ... 1939–1945)
From early December 1939 the British began preventing German exports as a reprisal for the damage and loss of life caused by the German magnetic mines.
Regarding American advertising of the JGA pistol. I have searched through every issue of Popular Mechanics, Popular Science, Boys Life and Outdoor life looking for Airgun ads and articles. I have also gotten pictures of airguns from hundreds of wholesaler catalogs , Johnson Smith catalogs and now have every other year of the Stoegers catalog from 1928 to 1954. Looked thru Sporting goods dealer from 1946 to 1955. Regardless to say I have amassed a lot of US airgun advertising.
First of all there are no advertisements for the "Dolla" pistol found in any US periodical that I could find. Suggest to me that the Dolla was marketed primarily in Europe.
I have found the first JGA pistol ad in Boys life dated December 1931. It is advertised as the "Keenfire" pistol for Christmas and does not list JGA or place of origin. The illustration of the pistol appears to be taken from the Anschutz catalog and shows the small JGA logo and split knurl loading screw pin. It lists importer Lee Sales. The last Keenfire" Ad is from Outdoor life June 1932. It is also from Lee Sales importer and is the last ad found from Lee Sales for this pistol. It appears Keenfires were marketed by Lee Sales exclusively and only for less than a year. The first Johnson Smith Ad for the JGA pistol is in the April 1932 issue of Popular Mechanics. It does not mention place of origin, JGA or Keenfire. Johnson Smith advertises and carries this pistol from 1932 to 1940. Johnson Smith initially markets the pistol via national magazines until 1933, and thereafter Johnson Smith only markets the pistol thru there annual Catalog. There is only one wholesale catalog that I have found that has listed this pistol and that was in 1936 calling it the "Big Chief".
It is interesting that it does not appear that the illustration for the pistol was ever updated in either the American or German advertisements.
The 1937 German illustration matches the 1931 American illustration even though the actual pistol was later updated with a large "G" in the logo and dropped the split knurl on the loading pin. All the illustrations are basically the same other than the alignment of the JGA emblem including the last US ad in 1940.
I would assume that the Small "JGA" logo came out first and thats whats on the first Ads, and then the illustration was not updated.
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David W Trull
Apparently the Keenfire was advertised in the 1934 Hudson Sporting Goods catalogue. The JGA pistol was also advertised in 1932, in the H & D Folsom Arms Company Catalogue
Cool that extends the Keenfire pistol marketing to late 1933.
I wondered about that since the last Lee Sales Ad was published in late 1932. I figured the Keenfire pistol may have still have been available because Lee Sales may have stopped National Advertising due to the Depression. It is documented that 1932 was the depths of the depression and the cost to advertise may have been prohibitive.
Should have checked the index for Cornell publishing for the Pistol .
Always finding something new. I don't have ads from either of those sporting goods companies. Sure requires a lot of detective work.
Saw this for the first time on the Cornell site.
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David W Trull
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Site Admin
8:40 PM - 6 days ago
A fair number of folk on the German forums are convinced that Haenel were the original manufacturers/designers of the JGA/Dolla/Keenfire/Big Chief, I have not seen documentary evidence for this yet though (I have not done thorough research on this). The JGA certainly looks very similar to the Haenel 50. If this was indeed the case then a deep dive into Stoeger for the American context might be necessary.
My mouse wheel did scroll about 180 kms through the Official Gazette of the United States Patent and Trademark Office for 1937 through to 1940 and I could find no entry for the L.O.C. trademark.
10:53 PM - 6 days ago#37
Wow, talk about stirring up another hornets' nest of speculation! I have never heard of that theory before.
Given that the Haenel 50/51 came onto the market a little after the JGA Mark 2 , given that Anschutz had been making this type of push-barrel design for years, in the form of the Mark 1, whereas Haenel had never had any truck with this design before or since, I think it would be safe to bury this theory?
Since neither pistols are ever mentioned by their true name during US advertising, they are often listed in the same ad. The JGA as a single shot and the Haenel 100 as the repeater. Lee Sales apparently the US importer List them both in the same Ad in 1932. The JGA is called the "Keenfire" and the Haenel 100 is called the "Surefire". Catchy names for the American market.
I can see that being advertised together could give the mistaken impression that these guns were manufactured by the same company and are different models from the same manufacturer since the company name is never mention.
Are there any known Haenel 100 with "Surefire" on the pistol ?
I can see that being advertised together could give the mistaken impression that these guns were manufactured by the same company and are different models from the same manufacturer since the company name is never mention.
Are there any known Haenel 100 with "Surefire" on the pistol ?
Citizen K
I feel you pain when trying to locate anything on the patent and trademark Website. It is very non intuitive!! There are several guns that clearly state patent pending that I can find no information on!!
Same issue with trademarks, although after what felt like ages of searching, I found the trademark for the Plainsman line of Airguns and thus establishing the link between the first and second generation of Plainsman airguns.
I feel you pain when trying to locate anything on the patent and trademark Website. It is very non intuitive!! There are several guns that clearly state patent pending that I can find no information on!!
Same issue with trademarks, although after what felt like ages of searching, I found the trademark for the Plainsman line of Airguns and thus establishing the link between the first and second generation of Plainsman airguns.
David W Trull
:37 AM - 6 days ago
@DWTrull
Indeed, it is not a chore I wish to repeat any time soon. The Google digitizations are at least text searchable but there is no way that LOC would translate meaningfully so scroll it was.
Indeed, it is not a chore I wish to repeat any time soon. The Google digitizations are at least text searchable but there is no way that LOC would translate meaningfully so scroll it was.
I think the Haenel origin story gained some small traction stemming from the JGA entry in an early Bluebook (3rd Edition?) wherein Beeman commented that Haenel might be the original manufacturer. The the trigger guard and grips of the 50 and JGA certainly look very similar.
It also does not help thatJG Anschutz's own catalogue (1937) also lists the Haenel 50 and for good measure a JGA branded pistol that looks remarkably like a Langenhan Dolla variant I or II. There does seem to be some sort symbiotic marketing/manufacturing relationship between these Suhl/Zella companies. Whatever the case, it's history we might never learn, when the Soviets entered those towns in mid 1945 they dismantled virtually the entire gun making industry and there was a concomitant loss of records and documentation.
JGA/Lagenhan Dolla?
It seems there is another ghost to chase with the "Surefire" find by DWT 
Boys Life. 1935
And another advert for the Japanese Eagle.
Shonen Club Magazine 1931
Here is an ad for the Surefire that includes a illustration of the pistol to leave no doubts as to it being a Haenel.
The pistol appears to be a Haenel 100.
The pistol appears to be a Haenel 100.
Fascinating discussion with wonderfully thorough information provided by all. I would like to add another possibility to the mix and suggest that the “Made in Japan” models were indeed made in Japan, but after WWII. It was stated that one of the boxed Japanese models was purchased at Gimbels prior to WWII. Could it have been purchased just after WWII as memories can often fade over time?
Enclosed is an ad for a JGA air pistol from a 1938 August Waeldin (New York) mail order catalog. That 30 page catalog features a variety of items sourced from the United States and Europe with a strong showing of German-made goods, including a few other airguns from Haenel. While no country of origin is listed for the JGA, no other items in the catalog are products of Japan. So, it could be presumed that the 1938 JGA model was German-made. It is doubtful that a Japanese version could have been produced and sold just a year or so before the start of WWII.
Following the war, Japan was in economic ruin and began to produce (and copy) a great many new products. With an interest in knives, I have and have seen several decent quality Japanese post-war reproductions of original pre-war German-made knives. I also have a couple of well-made WWII era Japanese-made break-barrel air rifles which are close copies of German designs. Japanese items made for export to the West were supposed to carry an “Occupied Japan” label from 1945 to 1952, but that wasn’t always the case.
I would end this bit of rambling by proposing the possibility that the “Made in Japan” models were made in Japan for a brief time shortly after WWII, and probably not licensed. By 1952, the “new” JGA models had resumed production (picture enclosed from 1952) and replaced the (possible) knock offs.
Just some fuel for the fire…
I have to admit that there are a lot of unknowns about the Japan labeled pistols that can't be answered. The general assumption has been that these are prewar pistols, but we don't know that for sure. Real food for thought!! Imagine postwar!! I have copy and pasted the auction description for the Japanese JGA labeled gun below:
Antique 1930s JGA Air Pistol With Box. This belonged to my dad, who was born in 1920, so he would have had this as a teenager in the mid to late 1930’s. He gave it to me to play with in the 1960’s. You can see in the pictures that the wood is cracked near the trigger. The box still has the original $1.98 price tag on the bottom from Gimbels Store in NYC.
The seller was the son of the original buyer, so this information is second hand and could possibly be wrong.
I especially like the 1938 August Waeldin (New York) mail order catalog photo of the JGA pistol. Usually they use an illustration for the picture and it is not ever updated. That Ad actually used a photograph!
I have found that the only updated pictures of the JGA are for the deluxe box kits that appear to have been introduced around 1937.
Here's why a actual photograph is so cool.
John Atkin's article about Midlands makes a good point about reuse of illustrations and "old" stock of airguns that were discontinued but still advertised due to the retailer still have a quantity of the product.
A major Hazard to using printed advertisements from both manufacturers and retailers in researching Airguns is that the illustrations are usually not updated.
Illustrated metal printing blocks were often supplied by the manufacturer for advertising their products. This is true with both foreign and domestic airguns that were advertised in the UK and US. At this time, advertising rarely used photographs for their products, instead relying on illustrations to depict their products, and was used by both the manufacturers and the retailers.
If no significant visual changes were made in the product, the same printing block or illustration that was used on the original introductory version, was used over and over for years by both the manufacturer and secondary retailers . Good examples of this practice can be illustrated by the US Crosman and the German JGA pistol. Illustrations for both these airguns were not updated for years since both only underwent minor cosmetic changes. The same introductory illustration was used for the JGA pistol for 10 years in the US, and the same early Crosman 101 illustrations were used from 1930 to 1946.
It would appear that catalog and print advertisements are good sources to ascertain availability of an airgun but is of lesser use for noting the timeline of cosmetic changes.
One alarming item I noticed, is the use by retailers of illustration of similar looking airguns from other manufactures to sell a different Airgun. I have found this to be usually a catalog issue. Midlands used a Langerhan pistol illustration to sell the Anschutz Dolla mark I. In America I have examples of a Sears catalog advertising a Crosman 101 and using a Rochester rifle illustration, and a Johnson Smith catalog advertising a Challenger Plainsman rifle using an illustration of an Apache rifle.
- Only updated "Illustration" of JGA pistol in 1937 Anschutz catalog.
August Waeldin photo matches actual example
David W Trull
Nice to see the seller's statement, which may or may not be correct...
Yes, the same pictures were certainly used year after year for most items in old catalogs. And also, items could have been sold for years after production was ceased if the inventory was still there. That makes it difficult sometimes to say when a item was actually terminated without factory documentation.
Enclosed is another JGA ad from a 1937 German GECO catalog. Interesting to see that the handle emblem was blank and that different pellets, darts, and targets were used as compared to the 1937 Anschutz catalog. Also shown is another boxed example of a German JGA model.
Wow!!!
That deluxe boxed example is label JAPAN on the box!!
So It must be a Japan labeled pistol !
If it's another JGA knockoff /copy. That mean they produced the Japan labeled guns in the standard box and the deluxe box, which shouldn't be surprising if the importer asked for it.
Wish we could compare the quality of the Japan Targets, darts and pellets to a German boxed kit for differences!
I'm really impressed with all the new information and theories that are popping up.
Any more info on the Deluxe boxed Japan JGA?
Does anyone recognized the tin of pellets? It does not match any of the tins on any other boxed JGA pistol I've seen. Of course they may not be original.
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David W Trull
Good catch on spotting the small "Japan" label on the box which I had forgotten about on that older picture. The pistol though is German-made with the "REG.U.S.PAT." over "MADE IN GERMANY" stamp on the bottom of the wood handle. The gun was quite possibly swapped out at some point many years ago??? A strange curve ball if not.
The pellet tin appears to be original with the pistol and says "For JGA - Diana and Haenel Air Pistols" with "Germany" below.
Nothing on the targets to indicate where they were printed, but I believe Germany.
The pellet tin appears to be original with the pistol and says "For JGA - Diana and Haenel Air Pistols" with "Germany" below.
Nothing on the targets to indicate where they were printed, but I believe Germany.
I am still convinced that the Japan marked pistol are indeed made in Japan. Just not sure about the time period! Still leaning toward prewar late 1930s. The Japanese sure were adept at copying Airgun designs after the war!
I think the Keenfire pellets imported to the US being primarily from Japan to be significant. It establishes a importer connection to Japan for Airgun paraphernalia and its not that large of a step from there to expand into a simple "toy" spring pistol. We know Keenfire was involved with Germany and Japan marketing products under their name.
I think the Keenfire pellets imported to the US being primarily from Japan to be significant. It establishes a importer connection to Japan for Airgun paraphernalia and its not that large of a step from there to expand into a simple "toy" spring pistol. We know Keenfire was involved with Germany and Japan marketing products under their name.
I noticed there is a difference in the Targets for German labeled pistol kits and the Japan label pistol kit.
The German kits have a "stock" number on the targets to identify different illustrated targets. Example Nr 316 and Nr 359
The Japanese marked kit has targets without a stock number. The area for the stock number is blank.
Also the 1938 US catalog kit has Japanese Keenfire pellets and the same targets as the Japanese kit. There is a strong possibility the US catalog kit depicted in the 1938 catalog may be a Japan labeled Kit.
The 1938 US catalog photo shows you what came in the kit in 1938. Unlike examples later that may have had components switched out over the years. Take a look at the comparison phot
David W Trull
Topic starter
30/12/2019 18:55:39
K.B. (Paris) pop-out pistol
Thanks to Thoralf for these pics.
John Griffiths, author of The Encyclopedia of Spring Air Pistols, described it as:
"This pistol, is one of those extremely rare things - A French vintage pistol. France was not noted for making spring air guns in the late nineteenth/early twentieth century so finding one at all is remarkable, and being able to identify its maker is the icing on the cake.
"It turns out that this pistol was made by the French company “K.B. Paris” around 1901. This is what I was able to find out:
"The company was founded in Paris by Kratz Boussac ca. 1884 and made toys and other items, and then started making toy guns in 1889 (spring operated with rubber tipped darts). These were manufactured under the trademark Eureka.
"In 1900 Eureka decided to make airguns to compete with the large number of foreign airguns that were being imported into France at the time. The range of airguns included among others the air rifles (“carabines”) La Reine (1901) (two models); La Princesse (1901) (two models); La Parisienne ( 1900); La Diane. Air pistols were of the push-barrel type and there were two models: Pistolet Scolaire No.1 in slide lid wooden box. Pistolet Scolaire No.2 with “ebony” grips, in hinged lid box. The following K.B Paris catalogue pages show these guns.
"Although this image of the pistol is not particularly clear, it can be seen to have grip form closely similar to that of the mystery pistol. I found better images which shows the pistol more clearly:
"The catalogue description says “nickel, crosse ébène, en eccrine” - which translates as “nickelled, ebony grip, cased”.
The illustrated case is not exactly the same as the one shown in the gallery, but close enough:
"It is interesting to compare the “Pistolet Scolaire No 2” with the following Eureka toy dart pistol as below. The similarity of their high manufacturing quality is striking.
"The “Pistolet Scolaire No 1” is also interesting, but it would probably be difficult to differentiate it from a conventional early German -made “Dolla” type pistol. So there may be some of these around but going unrecognised.
"What is particularly intriguing is the reference to a “Carabine Scolaire” under the title in the second catalogue illustration. It says about the Scolaire pistols: Même système et même maniere de charge que la carabine scolaire, which translates as: The same system and the same method of loading as the Scolaire rifle.
"Unfortunatey I have not been able to locate a picture of a Scolaire air rifle, but this does suggest that it was a push-barrel air rifle! So it is possible that T.J. Harrington wasn’t the first on the market with a Gat air rifle after all!
"I will keep looking."
One other example is known:
The pistol was sold by a retailer in Paris, France, and the case looks to be factory original:
Topic starter
03/05/2020 17:19:35
'Cub' Popout Air Pistol
With thanks to Vaclav for these pics:
Topic starter
09/05/2020 18:33:32
JGA pop-out air pistol (prewar 'Keenfire' marking, boxed)
With thanks to Mark.
Topic starter
24/05/2020 18:33:13
Dolla Mk1 (boxed)
Topic starter
15/08/2020 17:37:03
Britannia (blued)
With thanks to Mick W.
Topic starter
21/10/2021 17:33:32
The Gat pop-out air pistol (video)
Spotted on the YouTube website of Nash Rathbone, a vintage handtool collector.
Topic starter
10/11/2021 19:17:56
Lucifer brand popout (Argentina)
See also:
https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/industria-argentina/
27/12/2021 23:11:50
Eagle pop out air pistol (Japanese)
Images found on a Japanese auction site.
John Griffiths, author of The Encyclopedia of Spring Air Pistols, said of this pistol:
Japanese spring airguns are rare and the Eagle is the only confirmed example of a Japanese spring air pistol. Advertisements for the pistol (which was available nickelled or black lacquered) are known, dated to 1930 and 1931.
From an Eagle Brochure dated 1924 (Taisho 13)
Topic starter
13/02/2022 01:25:58
Super Briton Popout pistol
With thanks to John G for these pics:
With thanks to Tim at www.timdysonairguns.co.uk for these pics:
Topic starter
05/03/2022 18:15:17
Hy-Score model 818
See also:
https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/popout-air-pistols/popout-air-pistols/#post-738
This was basically the Herbert Schmidt HS9.
Topic starter
25/04/2022 17:18:59
Stiga 'Cadet' (Diana mod 2 copy)
With thanks to Eberhard.
Another one:
Another one:
Topic starter
23/06/2022 18:02:46
Lov 2 (first variant)
With thanks to mkguns,co.uk, owned by a UK collector who has kindly built a website to share pics of his collection, which is mainly pop-out and Webley air pistols.
Topic starter
24/06/2022 16:59:32
Cub popout (made in Germany)
With thanks to mkguns,co.uk, owned by a UK collector who has kindly built a website to share pics of his collection, which is mainly pop-out and Webley air pistols.
See also:
https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/popout-air-pistols/popout-air-pistols/#post-5217
Topic starter
24/06/2022 17:08:22
Briton Mk1 popout
With thanks to mkguns,co.uk, owned by a UK collector who has kindly built a website to share pics of his collection, which is mainly pop-out and Webley air pistols.
Topic starter
11/10/2022 17:30:27
Prewar Gat pistol (boxed, no corks mentioned on lid)
See also:
https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/trevs-airgun-scrapbook-cinedux-com/gat-2/#post-3576
With thanks to John G.
John says:
The box [is] unlike any other I [have] seen, having a lift-off lid, and the pistol [is] unusual in not having a muzzle adapter for firing corks.
It [is] a rare first version Gat, the one introduced briefly in 1939 before being suspended by the outbreak of war. The finish is most unusual, and I am sure it is original, consisting of a copper plating layer which ha[s] been chemically blacked. The black layer [i]s wearing a bit thin in places, showing the copper under-layer. The pistol dismantles quite differently to post- war guns, and has separate grip plates.
The breech pin also differs from that of the post-war models.
The box lid label looks superficially like those on all the later boxes, but in fact shows a pistol with no cork-firing adapter, and also unlike all later box lids, the description makes no mention of using the gun with corks. There is an interesting large label on the bottom of the box.
Topic starter
20/10/2022 17:57:07
Possible GAT prototype?
In relation to this pistol:
https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/unknown-unmarked-airguns/unmarked-airguns/#post-333
John Griffiths, author of The Encyclopedia of Spring Air Pistols, speculated on the airgunbbs.com:
Could this be a prototype for the T.J.Harrington Gat?
A while ago I showed the following unusual push barrel pistol on the forum ( https://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread...-barrel+pistol ). Tongue-in-cheek I tentatively suggested it could possibly be a prototype for the Harrington Gat. Having recently picked up a pre-war Gat, also pictured below, and now being at a loose end with my book re-write at the printers, I decided it was time to look into this possibility a bit more closely.
The mystery pistol is definitely British as it is based largely on imperial sizes and threads. It is constructed entirely of steel, with the exception the brass barrel and brass grip plates. The natural patina of the steel (the pistol was never blued) is indicative of considerable age, dating to at least the pre-war period, and could easily be of the same era as the first-version Gat .
T.J.Harrington developed his alloy Gat towards the end of the 1930’s, and evidently believed he had introduced enough novelty into the design to apply for a patent (although no patent appears to have ever been granted). Thus he would have made development prototypes, and these would certainly have been made in steel before committing to zinc alloy casting. So could the mystery pistol be one of his surviving prototypes?
Having dismantled the pistol and the pre-war Gat, and comparing them closely, these are my observations that support the idea:
1. The pistol has all the hallmarks of something that was made for experimentation and development, rather than something that was made to be a prized possession for actually shooting. Thus:
• The crude utilitarian appearance doesn’t gel with the time, effort and expert machining that has obviously gone into making it. The grip plates are too thin to make for comfortable grip, and the rear sight is rudimentary. It was never blued.
• The structure is obviously designed to be easily taken apart.
• There are built-in adjusters for both the trigger and the sear, something not found on other push- barrel pistols. These can only be accessed by dismantling the gun, and so were most probably used to optimize the geometry of the sear/trigger assembly.
• The main spring consists of three smaller (professionally finished) springs, so that the power can be modified by adding or removing one of them.2. The pistol frame disassembles in a manner very similar to the pre-war Gat, and uses the same type of screw ((4BA) :
3. The barrel OD and muzzle nut threads are identical, with a 5/16ʺ BSF thread. This thread size is unique to the Gat, and no other commercial British push-barrel pistols used such a thread.
4. There are distinct similarities between the sear arrangements of the two pistols, notably (a) the use of a pivot pin that rotates with the sear rather than one that remains static with the sear rotating about it, and (b) the positioning of the sear spring within the grip.
The close similarities between dimensions and threads used on the two pistols, which are not shared by other push-barrel pistols from the same era, are summarized in the following table.
In response to suggestions from Eddie and others, John continued:
POINT 1:
"Home made project by someone who had access to a Gat they copy."
"Or the polar opposite, someone looked inside a Gat / pop out and just fancied making one of their own so it was "theirs"
I disagree with this idea, as the pistol (IMHO) dates more from the 1930's than 1950's. So when this was made, the Harrington Gat would not have been around long to copy (the pre-war Gat was only available briefly ca. 1939). Look at the patina to see its obvious age:
Another factor is the design of the breech plug (pictured below). The use of one with a female fitting is unique for pop-out pistols, so if someone was trying to make a copy of the Gat, they were introducing quite a bit of their own ingenuity. I think it much more likely that this was a Harrington concept that was later dropped when he finalised his design, perhaps because it involved more machining costs than a conventional breech plug.
POINT 2
Could it not just be a home / homer at work made effort also?
You would think a prototype might have some mark of some sort, and be a bit better made, especially the trigger / sear area which really look home / very average school metalwork level and not smith / skilled made.When I look at the pistol closely, yes there are aspects of the build that suggest expediency over finesse, but you have to remember that T.J. Harrington was not your Webley or BSA company, but was a one-man band. If he was in a hurry to get a money-making pistol to the market, why would he not cut a few corners?
Having said that, there are other aspects of the gun that do show professional expertise, like the quality of the brazing throughout, as exemplified by the front sight below, the quality of the machining on the brass grip plates, and the attention to detail with the breech plug:
To which Eddie replied:
Do you really think those grips were made for the gun, or "re-purposed" from other stock?
Patina and obvious age......Okey dokey, I have seen BSA's from 1905 that look new, and 1970's Mercuries that look like Civil War muskets, pitting depth and metal condition cannot determine age, simple as that I would venture.
All things being equal they are a clue and a guide, all things being equal.
The end plug looks very much like a re-used grease gun cap / machine oiler closure to me...
The brazing is the norm for any person who is a factory worker, my mum could have done it even (true she was AID during the war and showed me how to weld).
The machined bits are tidy, but who is to say it was all done by one bloke?...If a "homer" then a trip to a mate in the machine shop may have happened to do the bits the maker could not do, just like me helping countless guys over the years at work with countless projects.
Your whole argument seems to be because it looks older than 1939 then it must be "gen[uine]" when who knows what was in the mind of the person who made it and the style they wanted etc. It could easily be 50's or 60's even
I have only answered the question posed and "comments would be appreciated" from my career where I have worked in various aspects of engineering /machine shops/factories since 1973 and seen and done all I have described.
My opinion is it's a home made weapon, like countless others out there, and the origins are impossible to determine despite a few possibly random similarities.
Topic starter
16/03/2023 20:56:27
Loc marked 'Japan' but with German markings
With thanks to John G and Bruce Jr.
John said on the airgunbbs.com:
This LOC pistol is an interesting pop-out pistol rarity that appears to be an exact copy of the German JGA Dolla Mark II, except that it has a ‘LOC’ medallion set into the grip, and it is impressed on the base of the grip with “Made in Japan”.
It is very rare and was only available in the USA in about 1938-1939. There has been much debate about the truth of the “Made in Japan” mark, and there are two schools of thought. Firstly, the statement could be true, and the pistol is a Japanese copy of the Dolla Mark II, or secondly it was a German-made Dolla MK II with fake markings, intended to deceive the US Customs at a time when Nazi German imports were banned. If the markings are true, then that would make it the only the second spring air pistol known to have been made in Japan. The pros and cons of these two schools of thought are discussed in detail in the Vintage Airguns Gallery here :
https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery....ols/#post-4077
Although the weight of evidence tended to favour the second theory, the alternative interpretation could still not be completely discounted. Now, a new piece of evidence has now come to light, thanks to the sharp eye of forum member Bruce (Buck25), which more or less clinches the ‘fake Nazi marking’ theory. An example of the LOC pistol has been found, which, despite being marked ‘Made in Japan’, has small stampings of the Nazi Eagle, in stylized form, on the cylinder, trigger guard, trigger and grip.
This Nazi eagle was used extensively on guns, both for secret coding and as proof marks. Here are some examples:
The question now is, why this particular gun stamped in this way, when all the others reported to date were not.
Ollie (reflecting other sceptical views) said:
Its an intriguing possibility. But I am a mite bit suspicious of he 'eagle' stamp on an airpistol. Why do that if the intent is to fool US customs? Given that stamping anything with an eagle or a swastika (look at the vast amounts of so-called Burghof silver and table linen now on sale to collectors of such stuff) until more evidence emerges needs to be treated with a very large grain of salt.
John replied:
I suppose the marks could be fakes, but you would have to ask why would anyone bother? I could understand such faking on iconic firearms like luger and mauser, as the Nazi connection would increase value, but not on a humble air pistol that 99.999% of collectors would never have heard of.
If these pistols were first shipped out to Japan in large batches, either complete or as parts for assembly in Japan, perhaps one example per batch was marked to satisfy the German export controls. I just don't know...
If the stampings are fake, they would have had to be done in the last 3-4 years, as the LOC controversy was not discussed until 2019. Prior to that the LOC was unknown, outside the Encyclopedia of Spring Air Pistols, 1st edition. Only an airgun nut who visited the Vintage Airgun Gallery or the AVA would have known about the LOC controversy and potential Nazi involvement.
Admittedly the seller of this pistol on the American Fleabay did know about the controversy, so you have to draw your own conclusions. In his favour, he does not seem to make much of the markings as a selling point...
[Then, looking closely at other pics of this pistol, he said:]
This pistol does not have the "Made in Japan" stamped on the heel of the grip!
So this is the first known example of a LOC pistol not marked thus, and IMO proves once and for all that the LOC was a German-made rebadged version of the Anschutz JGA/Dolla Mk II pistol, and was not something that ever originated from Japan.
Irrespective of whether or not the Nazi markings are fake, the puzzle of why something intended to dupe the US Customs would have had give-away Nazi stampings on it now disappears. This particular pistol was never intended for deceptive export to the USA. It is so rare that I doubt it was ever sold in Germany. The labelling on the pistol box is in English, so it was not intended for the German market. The gun was available only in 1938-1939, so would not have been intended for the UK market, which leaves only the USA. The simplest explanation is that this particular example was one of the first to be exported to the USA, just before Anschutz was forced to resort to fake "Made in Japan" labelling to get the gun past US customs.
As to the possible faking of the marks, the comment made on the Gunboards Forum by the OP: "I just wonder why somebody would go in to trouble of reproducing this stamp just to mark this little air pistol?" echoes my own thoughts.
This little pistol still holds a lot of secrets.
Topic starter
05/09/2023 22:13:57
The Gat popout (nickel)
With thanks to John M.
Topic starter
05/09/2023 22:18:35
The Gat Export model
With thanks to John M.
Topic starter
03/11/2023 18:20:25
Briton Mk2 Popout Air Pistol (brown grips)
Topic starter
11/07/2024 22:10:49
Postwar Gat (boxed, no corks mentioned on lid)
With thanks to Paul.
Topic starter
12/07/2024 14:54:25
Early pre- and post-war green Gat boxes (sequence)
With thanks to John Griffiths, author of the Encyclopedia of Spring Air Pistols. John says:
Although there is no concrete dating evidence from contemporary catalogues or magazine adverts, the most likely sequence starts with the top box, which would have been just pre-war (ca. 1937-1939). This was less utilitarian than post-war boxes, being made of thicker cardboard with a lift-off lid design. It also had different lettering to later boxes, and was marked “An All British Production”, whereas later boxes simply stated “Made in England”.
In 1947, when manufacture of the Gat started up again, the box design changed to the central one, which was made of thinner cardboard with the more economical end-flap design, presumably reflecting the austerity of the period and scarcity of raw materials. The pistol inside the box was still the non-cork firing model and the label lettering naturally made no mention of corks. The unusual green colour of the box lid may also been a result of the limited availability of printing inks at the time.
Probably within one or two years, when T.J. Harrington had modified the pistol to fire corks, he kept the same style box, which is the bottom one shown. Probably for cost saving he used the same printing block for the lid, just making a small change to the lettering to include mention of corks. So the pistol shown on the lid did not match the box contents.
A red box was later introduced with the same inaccurate label, and this was followed by the more familiar blue boxes and red boxes with the correct gun illustration, but these make up another story.
Topic starter
30/09/2024 16:58:29
The Briton (nickel-plated)
With thanks to Eberhard.
Topic starter
22/01/2025 22:58:51
Phenix pop-out air pistol (EG no.3)
See also:
John Griffiths, author of the Encyclopedia of Spring Air Pistols, says of this pistol:
This pistol was on the market for a long period, originally made by Eisenwerke Gaggenau from the 1880's in Germany, and continued up to ca. 1930, being made by other unknown companies in the later years...
Although it has had various catalogue names over the years, such the EG No. 3, the William Tell, and the Boy's Dolla, I have never heard of a Phenix version. This one almost certainly originates from, or was marketed specifically for, Belgium. The puzzle is, why is it marked as being patented? There is nothing there to patent.
With thanks to Eberhard.
Topic starter
07/04/2025 22:39:38
Britannia pop-out air pistol (boxed)
With thanks to Tim of timdysonairguns.co.uk.
