Webley Junior - Wood grip, Ser Num 1901

That cleaned up better than I thought it might.  It looks pretty good without looking like it has been "Restored".  I go as far as saying that I'd give it space on my table.  I did notice the barrel on the auction pics. If it has been cut down, they are rarely straight and need cleaning up with a file. 

You have done well with that-----after a 20 years wait.    

Ok---- Wood gripped Webley Junior--------now get cracking with that SP50 we all want to see, 🙂 

Cheers Guy 👍 

😆 The SP50 will be cleaned up, serviced and will be staying as I don’t have another example and it’s actually in very good condition considering it’s a bit mousey 🐭 

That's a great sympathetic restoration Phil. It is hard to believe it would have come up like that with such minimalist intervention. 

I envy you being able to do welding like that. What technique do you use?

Another question that just occurred to me. Did you have any problems with the guns being sent directly to you, with the SP50 being a post-1939 air gun?  

Posted by: @johng

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That's a great sympathetic restoration Phil. It is hard to believe it would have come up like that with such minimalist intervention. 

I envy you being able to do welding like that. What technique do you use?

Another question that just occurred to me. Did you have any problems with the guns being sent directly to you, with the SP50 being a post-1939 air gun?  

Thanks John, I was happy with the way it turned out considering and I had a few lucky breaks along the way too. 
I am the first to admit I am not a great welder but through trial and error I’ve got the hang of welding the snapped off lugs on the top catches. I did try making a sort of jig made of brass but that was unsuccessful. So now what I do is clean back the catch and using a gasless mig welder I add a whole section of weld on both sides (assuming both lugs have broken) and then I tie them in with a bead across the top. This way I know I’ve got enough heat and penetration into the metal and then I re cut it with a small fibre cutting/grinding disc in a dremel. I hold it with a wooden hand clamp while I’m doing it,I find that is safer as I did originally try a small metal vice and snapped and additional lug for my troubles. If you go careful with the wooden version you should be safe, you don’t mark the work piece and you don’t suffer with heat transference to your hand (I can’t weld in gloves). 
I have done quite a few this way and have yet to have one re-break. I hope that makes sense, if not I can take some photos next time 👍

Sorry yes, the postage. This was the bit that had me worried but I had it collected by Royal Mail/Parcelforce and I just filled it out on line. You have to fill it out as if you are the sender (the auction house won’t do that although they did parcel it up) and you can clink a section that means the Postie will take with them a label with your address on it which they affix to the parcel when they collect. It’s the first time I had done it and I was half expecting it to go wrong but it was actually ok 👍

Thanks Phil. Brilliant replies to my questions on both counts!

I had never heard of Parcel Force collecting on your behalf, so making you, and not the auction house, the sender.  As long as the auction house will play ball, it sounds like the perfect answer to the problem of distance bidding on air guns.  I will give it a try when the first opportunity arises.   

Posted by: @johng

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Thanks Phil. Brilliant replies to my questions on both counts!

I had never heard of Parcel Force collecting on your behalf, so making you, and not the auction house, the sender.  As long as the auction house will play ball, it sounds like the perfect answer to the problem of distance bidding on air guns.  I will give it a try when the first opportunity arises.   

Neither had I tbh John but a friend told me about it. I looked into other couriers but no one else wants to touch Airguns. I messaged the auction house before I bid just to make sure they would parcel it up should I be the successful bidder and they said they would. I confess it was still a little nerve wracking until the parcel arrived in fact I was that sure something would go wrong that I didn’t even post up that I was the winning bidder when a thread appeared on here about it but as it turns out it actually went ok and the Royal Mail site isn’t too bad to work out once you get your head round the fact you are filling it out as both the sender and recipient which seems a little weird to begin with. 

Brilliant restoration Phil! 

Great write up Phil...and another old airgun sympathetically returned to use.I dread to think that someone without your skills and integrity might have either buffed the hell out of it...reblued it or broken it for spares .......nice to see the pictures along the way too.

It couldn't have ended up with a better custodian.... 😀 

Thankyou Danny and Chris 👍 

I know opinions vary on Preservation V Restoration but for me personally there was only really one option for this particular Junior. It’s taken me so long to find one that there can’t be many left. It would be interesting if anyone has compiled any numbers of known survivors 🤔

Posted by: @pjbingham

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Cheers Guy 👍 

😆 The SP50 will be cleaned up, serviced and will be staying as I don’t have another example and it’s actually in very good condition considering it’s a bit mousey 🐭 

Maybe even the mice down there are into air pistols Phil? A couple of traps baited with a Webley Junior and a SP 50 ? 🤔   

Posted by: @ggggr

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Posted by: @pjbingham

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Cheers Guy 👍 

😆 The SP50 will be cleaned up, serviced and will be staying as I don’t have another example and it’s actually in very good condition considering it’s a bit mousey 🐭 

 

Maybe even the mice down there are into air pistols Phil? A couple of traps baited with a Webley Junior and a SP 50 ? 🤔   

 

The pistols were from Maxwells auction house in Stockport so the offending Mice are likely going to have an accent closer to yours than mine, all ‘Mousage’ was already present on arrival 😬👍 

You should have put them under UV light Phil. If they were Northern Mice, they would have pished on them.  ( the pish stains would have shown under Uv light------------not that I'm an expert on pish stains) 

Going off the lack of deep corrosion on the gun I am guessing they didn't.   Maybe Northern mice have a deeper appreciation of  Webley air pistols???? 🤔 

You are right there is no deep pitting but I think most of the corrosion is down to poor storage rather than the Meeces. 

So I am learning mouse pish damages Webley air pistols but only if it's a northern mouse pish right? 

What is pish? Is that regular mouse pee or what? 

Dumb Yank 

Sorry phil only just found this thread hence the late reply,superb work and has turned out really well you must be over the moon with it 🙂

Funnily enough I just bought a pair of pistol stands on ebay and in one photo I spotted a wood grip,i did send a message to ask if it was for sale but no reply so sadly my hunt continues 😁🤣

Posted by: @hy-scorecollector

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So I am learning mouse pish damages Webley air pistols but only if it's a northern mouse pish right? 

What is pish? Is that regular mouse pee or what? 

Dumb Yank 

 

 

 

 "Pish" is what the Scottish  call pee.  There is very little difference between Northern and Southern mice -----except the Northern ones are usually more intelligent and handsome, a bit like the people. 😉   Actually most mice in inner city areas, display "Native cunning"  and are known for taking bait off a trap without setting the trap off.  I have had to tune traps by filing and polishing the bar that holds the big springy thing that gets them-------and even glue some cardbord to the bottom of the wooden bit so they would set it off with their chest when leaning over. 

I hope that has helped to clear things up? 🙂 

Posted by: @evostu

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Sorry phil only just found this thread hence the late reply,superb work and has turned out really well you must be over the moon with it 🙂

Funnily enough I just bought a pair of pistol stands on ebay and in one photo I spotted a wood grip,i did send a message to ask if it was for sale so sadly my hunt continues 😁🤣

-- attachment is not available --

Cheers Stu 👍 The good thing is that it does show they are still out there to be found. It took over 20 years but I got there eventually 😎 

I think I’ve messaged that seller the same question in the past 👍

Hopefully won't take 20 years as I'll be 70 then 🤣

The one inposted about is still for sale but

1 I dont really want to deal with him again 

2 if i did he won't budge on the £860 asking price 

Posted by: @evostu

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Hopefully won't take 20 years as I'll be 70 then 🤣

The one inposted about is still for sale but

1 I dont really want to deal with him again 

2 if i did he won't budge on the £860 asking price 

-- attachment is not available --

That one is a lot of money Stu, I remain unconvinced it’s worth it. If your luck is like mine (mostly bad) you could buy it at over the top money and next week there will be three come up for half the price 😣

I thought the pics would have been added to that thread on AGF?  It would be interesting to see if there were any more Magnet fishing comments. 🤔 

Yes would of loved to of seen people's opinions on the agf now its been restored 😀 

Posted by: @ggggr

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I thought the pics would have been added to that thread on AGF?  It would be interesting to see if there were any more Magnet fishing comments. 🤔 

Posted by: @pjbingham

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Posted by: @ggggr

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I thought the pics would have been added to that thread on AGF?  It would be interesting to see if there were any more Magnet fishing comments. 🤔 

Dan isnt on here as you know and he had asked me if I would mind sending him some photos when I had tidied it up as he was interested in how it would turn out and I sent him some on Friday. He may not wish to add any to the thread over there as it will cause snidey Italicky digs from a certain quarter and I respect his decision not too if that’s the case. Anyway let’s focus on the positives 👍

 

I know Dan has been very busy as he has got a pup and is spending time taking it and the other dog out for walks, tidying up after them, and the usual young doggy stuff.   Hopefully things will start to settle a bit for him in a few weeks.  I also know he has his horlicks and an early night 🙄 

Have any of you lad's come across the Webley (rexine.?) factory box's yet.....I had one and fondled another....what sort of price do they go for and are their fakes of those around too..?

Posted by: @hwvixen

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Have any of you lad's come across the Webley (rexine.?) factory box's yet.....I had one and fondled another....what sort of price do they go for and are their fakes of those around too..?

There are definitely replica rexine cases Chris but I don’t know anything really about them other than the fact that original ones are rare and expensive. I recall various threads on the BBS mentioning them and I’ve just had a quick look on here and they are mentioned. I think David (Troubledshooter) knows about them 🤔 

It's a good job that this site is here because that Magnet fishing  find Junior of yours is not getting much interest on AGF now. 

I forgot to ask, is yours a normal piston or one with the pinned head? I think John G  (although it may have been the bloke who bought that one on the BBS a few years back? ) put up pics of a pinned head one. 

Posted by: @ggggr

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It's a good job that this site is here because that Magnet fishing  find Junior of yours is not getting much interest on AGF now. 

I forgot to ask, is yours a normal piston or one with the pinned head? I think John G  (although it may have been the bloke who bought that one on the BBS a few years back? ) put up pics of a pinned head one. 

It’s only because it belongs to me, I expected that 😎👍 

The piston is not the pinned type. 

Hmm--I wonder if there is a cut off date/ serial number for the pinned pistons??? Or if it was just something they had a batch of and worked them into some pistols to use them up?  I don't know how many wood gripped guns were made anyhow?? 

Posted by: @ggggr

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Hmm--I wonder if there is a cut off date/ serial number for the pinned pistons??? Or if it was just something they had a batch of and worked them into some pistols to use them up?  I don't know how many wood gripped guns were made anyhow?? 

Regarding the pinned pistons I’ve no idea tbh. 
I’ve read between 2 and 3 thousand wood grip Juniors but I don’t know if anyone has compiled a list of known serial numbers or what the highest known number is 🤷‍♂️ It does seem though like very few survive. 

@pjbingham 

Hello Phil,

Where was the damage you had to weld please? I have a wood grip junior that appears to have had the trigger pulled whilst in the open fully cocked position,probably more than once. Both sides of the barrel seal housing are 'flared' outwards. I have no ability to weld. Can this be repaired. It's SN 1441?

Rob 

Hi Rob, depending on the damage where you describe this can be repaired by gently massaging and moving the metal back, if it’s snapped off then it will have to be built back up. The damage on mine was mainly limited to the rear site area. 

@pjbingham 

Phil, 

I Have one with serial 2234, but i would estimate some where shy of 3000 wood grip juniors. I've reached into the dusty corners of my collection and realised I have a few, I will open them all up over the next couple of days and see if any are pinned.

Rob

Posted by: @gt550a

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@pjbingham 

Phil, 

I Have one with serial 2234, but i would estimate some where shy of 3000 wood grip juniors. I've reached into the dusty corners of my collection and realised I have a few, I will open them all up over the next couple of days and see if any are pinned.

 

Rob

I have heard up to x3000 before Rob, I’ve never made a study of known serial numbers and the highest one seen. So few survive but I guess with it being marketed at youngsters the survival rate is perhaps not suprising 🤔

@ggggr 

Pinned Pistons and damaged breech barrel housings

I found a piined  piston in SN j1441. I tried every option i could find to insert a picture and couldn't attach it! it keeps saying

"please select a file(s) using right checkbox(s) to insert in post" which I did but when i tried to insert the file (JPG), the same messgae came up

serial numbers  j2164,J2234,J2047 didn't have a pinned piston.

The first three wood grip juniors I aquired all had damage around the sides of the piston locating lugs, none were flared out

as I first thought but had parts of the metal broken off. I'm wondering if the early juniors had a weak spot here or inferior mertal.

Which I would be surprised at given webleys renowned quality. But 3 out of 4 random found pistols had similar damage? 

I've not seen simlar damage on any of the tin grips, or series 2 juniors. Does anyone know of a modification done in this area

about the time tin grips were introduced ? Could always be the fault of the younger junior users of course, but does seem odd?

Anyone else seen this? I was going to post pictures of the damage, but see the above incompetence of the poster😬   😆 

Rob

Posted by: @gt550a

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The first three wood grip juniors I aquired all had damage around the sides of the piston locating lugs, none were flared out

as I first thought but had parts of the metal broken off. I'm wondering if the early juniors had a weak spot here or inferior mertal.

 

Piston locating lugs???? Do you mean the face of the piston that the sear engages on? 

@ggggr I meant barrell not piston. I was thinking about pinned pistons 🙄

The pinned piston.......eventually fron sn j1441

R

Damage to sn j2234 around the barrel housing.

Damage around the barrel housing sn j2164

Damage to the barrel housing sn j1441

As I said above, three out of four bought from different sources over 15 - 20 years, similar damage out of a production run of circa 3000 seems strange.

Rob I posted all the pics you sent me above. 

Rob,

Please can you tell me if the broken surface is blued or rust patina coloured and is it of a single colour and texture ?  Any clear colour change might indicate a manufacturing fault like a suub standard batch of steel or an over tight breech ( barrel diameter against side supports fitting).  Do you plan on getting them restored/repaired ?

Jim.

@jss 

Under a magnifying glass, the break surfaces look both shiny and black if that makes sense. Also under a maginifiying light the break surfaces are minutely dimpled!. Yes I would like to sympathically repair them to full metal structure, but I'm struggling to find anyone willing to give it a go. At least two of the fractures involve the seating for the barrel catch.

I don't know if my desciption of the breaks shines any light on the problem, I just have a feeling that there must have been a quality problem with the wood grip casting. 

Rob

Jim, 

I'm happy to try and take more detailed photos, just PM me if you would like them.

Rob

Rob,

Often these recurring problems are a combination of things and without knowing the exact materials and methods used in manufacture one can only guess.  I was thinking in terms of a single catastrophic cause, like accidentally firing the pistols when the barrel was still some way out from the catch, or it slipping from a young hand  and slamming home.  This would probably show as a single coloured and textured break surface, where as if the casting failed over time there might be colour indications from progressive rusting as a crack deepened before the part failed.  I can't visualise any easy fix and the time investment in such a repair would be considerable, even in a well equipped workshop. The barrel catch slide way machining would I think be the big problem.  I wish I could help in some way as these pistols are far too valuable to go unrepaired  and even breaking one down to provide parts for another seems a shame to me.  I'm hope someone from VAG is able to help you directly.

Jim

I have a tin gripped Junior (more later) that had damage on one side of the breech block, worse than what you show in your pictures. 

A fairly usual problem with Juniors and Mk1's is when someone has tried to remove the catch and they lever it or hit it more from one side. The usual result is broken lugs on the catch. The way I and others try to get a catch out is to tap the catch centrally from the back using a bit of wood and a small hammer or block.  If it isn't coming out straight then tap it back in and start again. I guess it is quite easy to break the front of the breech block if you continue to try to knock out a catch that isn't straight.  I suppose if a new catch was fitted that had lugs that were a fraction wide or thick, that it would be possible to break the breech at the front--------but as you have 3 pistols with the breakage I'm guessing new catches would not have been fitted to all three. 

It is also possible that someone could lever off  the breech block trying to get the breech seal out but that seems unlikely as it would take a fair bit  of being ham fisted to do that. 

As the guns are likely to have had the breech seals replaced at some point, I'd guess that the damage was caused, removing the catch to get at the breech seal. 

If Ed bear is on he could probably advise you on getting the breech block welded up. 

I'll tell you about mine.  

I ended up with a tin gripped Junior with a broken breech block off the BBS about 2017.   Young Jules / Dejayuu, did a pretty good repair on the block using an arc welder! If you ask him on there he may remember how he did it. 

I guess he cleaned up the area and shaped a bit of mild steel, then filed the slot for the catch in it. Then he probably put something that wasn't steel in the slots where the lugs slide to line it up and keep it in place, then welded it and cleaned it up.  

PS ----(again Ed bear would be able to advise) If you could use a bit of flat bar of something the weld wouldn't stick to (Tungsten?) to go in the slots and a  small round bar of  the same to go in the block where the barrel sits, then I guess it would be possible to build the broken bits up with just weld, rather than try to weld a piece in. 

Rob I'll ask Edbear (Eddie) if he'll contribute to this thread. 

@jss 

Jim,

They won't be broken for parts.

Rob

@ggggr 

Thanks Guy,

Your thoughts on the cause of breakage are probably not far from the truth, I hadn't considered hamfistededness and brute force and ignorance as the common cause, but I think your are probably right. 

Your repair suggestion seems a good one, but not something I could undertake. My O level metalwork didn't really cover anything usefull apart from a bit of lathe machining and casting alloys, but I can't remember what we cast!!, it was the early seventies after all.

But a really interesting reply thankyou.

Rob

@garvin 

Thanks Danny

Posted by: @gt550a

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They won't be broken for parts.

 

We should have a sign over the TInkerer's Shed that says that. 🙂 

@ggggr 

Guy,

Yes the plan is to keep all three until I come across someone who can repair the damage, or sell inividually to someone who will repair them. They need to be returned to use, as working, honest rare pistols.

Rob

I think the damage seen on the ‘ears’ as I think of them vary. On ‘1901’ above they were splayed out as if the returning that barrel out of line and a bit sharpish had gently massaged them outwards over many thousands of shots but I have also seen damage in the past that appears much more like barrel slamming down or hamfisted prying examples with the latter often being large chunks missing that appear to be fractured away. I have seen a few examples of brazed repairs in the past in that area and they appear to work well but the immediately obvious down side to that it the colour difference. 

I think Ed must be away.

Rob,

So pleased to hear they will remain as collection item until a repairer is found.  They are definitely worth more as complete items than as a collection of parts that lead to the wastage of the hardest of all their parts to remake.

Jim

Posted by: @jss

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Rob,

So pleased to hear they will remain as collection item until a repairer is found.  They are definitely worth more as complete items than as a collection of parts that lead to the wastage of the hardest of all their parts to remake.

Jim

@pjbingham 

Phil,

I'd accept a brazed fix if it guaranteed the pistols future as working, safe, wanted pistols. I must admit I assumed all three wouldn't conduct the air to the pellet, because of the breakage. I will try Guy's blow down the barrel to see if they seal. Obviously away from woke eyes, who might immeadiately summon various emergency services. If thats sucessfull the next step would be to see if the barrel actually fires.

Rob

Posted by: @gt550a

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@pjbingham 

Phil,

I'd accept a brazed fix if it guaranteed the pistols future as working, safe, wanted pistols. I must admit I assumed all three wouldn't conduct the air to the pellet, because of the breakage. I will try Guy's blow down the barrel to see if they seal. Obviously away from woke eyes, who might immeadiately summon various emergency services. If thats sucessfull the next step would be to see if the barrel actually fires.

Rob

😄 I know some people have commented on Guy’s ‘blowing barrels’ practices Rob but they often have an agenda and I personally get where Guy is coming from (it’s not often I say that 😏) 

I have a Junior here that has been brazed although not by me and I was able to mess around with some black paint enough to take away the brassy looking finish and make it look like a slightly less obvious repair. Strength and usability wise I’d say brazing is certainly an option 👍

@pjbingham 

Phil,

Back in seventies, as a teenager, me and my mates would keep 4 or 5 pellets in our mouths to aid fast loading, rather than fumbling about in pockets when we were out in the fields😮 🤣 

Rob

Posted by: @gt550a

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@pjbingham 

Phil,

Back in seventies, as a teenager, me and my mates would keep 4 or 5 pellets in our mouths to aid fast loading, rather than fumbling about in pockets when we were out in the fields😮 🤣 

Rob

😆 we laugh now Rob but some of these things we did were just plain daft, different times though 😎 I’ve held pellets between my lips for the same reason as a youngster but not put them fully in my mouth. We used to warm sluggish maggots up in the same way when fishing on cold winter days but then again we weren't the brightest bunch 😣 

Good morning chaps. I've just logged in and seen this has gotten to the "blowing down barrels" stage. 🙄    Here is something I've never tried but is something that should work , ADAPTED  (terrible pun) from something I've done a few times to try to convince a stuck piston to move.    I've got a foot pump with an adapter for blowing up a ball, I cut a thin bit of leather and poked a hole in it for the adapter needle to go through, then wet the leather. I put it in the end of the barrel and pumped ("Oh err Missus") and managed to shift a stuck piston in a Bsa Scorpion and a Meteor.   That might be a better, though more faffing about, test for the breech seal?

Posted by: @ggggr

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Good morning chaps. I've just logged in and seen this has gotten to the "blowing down barrels" stage. 🙄    Here is something I've never tried but is something that should work , ADAPTED  (terrible pun) from something I've done a few times to try to convince a stuck piston to move.    I've got a foot pump with an adapter for blowing up a ball, I cut a thin bit of leather and poked a hole in it for the adapter needle to go through, then wet the leather. I put it in the end of the barrel and pumped ("Oh err Missus") and managed to shift a stuck piston in a Bsa Scorpion and a Meteor.   That might be a better, though more faffing about, test for the breech seal?

I’ve never tried either process so cannot comment but the theory appears sound 👍 

Posted by: @gt550a

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@ggggr 

Guy,

Yes the plan is to keep all three until I come across someone who can repair the damage, or sell inividually to someone who will repair them. They need to be returned to use, as working, honest rare pistols.

Rob

I'd happily buy one and repair it if you decide to go that route 🙂

@evostu 

Stu,

I've PM'ed you an idea, which doesn't involve payment!!!

Rob

Posted by: @gt550a

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@ggggr 

Guy,

Yes the plan is to keep all three until I come across someone who can repair the damage, or sell inividually to someone who will repair them. They need to be returned to use, as working, honest rare pistols.

Rob

It may well be worth asking on the BBS or AGF if anyone is up to welding them for you---------Or maybe Ed will see the post and get in touch and advise.

As I mentioned ,Jules did a pretty good job on mine, considering he was using a stick welder. I was very impressed.

Jules likes a challenge and is a nice bloke, so if he saw the thread, he might be willing to help. Dejayuu is his name on the forums.

If I had one that needed doing, I'd probably be getting in touch with him-------but I don't know about 3. 🙂

@ggggr 

Thanks Guy,

I'm not active on BBS or AGF anymore. I will keep your recommendation up my sleeve thanks, as I'm currently investigating a repair solution (not by me I might add).

Rob